Tuesday, 27 February 2007
The phenomena of suicide - murder
Hi Nick,
I liked your comment
“In another case in June 2006 a 28 year old woman, Angela Schumann also jumped off the Humber Bridge with her 2 year old daughter. Miraculously her and her daughter survived, with Angela shouting out for help as soon as they hit the water. They were very lucky to survive the 100ft fall into cold water, with the daughter surviving as she was zipped into her Angela's jacket!!!” (end quote)
It raises a significant point. The relationship between murder and suicide. Some see no difference between the two. Murder is the killing of someone else and suicide is the killing of self. Quite similar actions just in slightly different directions. Some see them as psychologically similar phenomena.
Although it may seem a little bit harsh, Angela Schumann who jumped with her two year old daughter did attempt to kill the daughter. That would seem quite clear, as obviously a two year old cannot make such a decision for herself. The fact that Angela was given only 18 months seems to demonstrate the the UK legal system is understanding of such things. I am not saying that she should have been charged but it does seem quite clear that she did attempt to murder her daughter.
I am surprised that murder-suicides are not more common. The individual has made the same decision to kill a person, they have crossed that line. Also if a person has made a decision to kill self then really they can go and do what they want, to who they want. The punishment effect of the law is irrelevant if one is dead or is going to be dead soon.
Indeed this reminds me of a client who I treated for some time. I remember him telling me how he was having such a difficult time as he had not put in a tax return for the past three years. When I asked him why he had not done that he stated that for the previous three years he had been so depressed he felt that it was only a matter of time until he suicided. “One does not really bother about filing a tax return if you think you are going to be dead in a few months or so”. Which when you think about it, he has a good point!
One way to suicide is to get the state to kill you with the death penalty
The relationship between suicide and murder is a complex and interesting one.
Another connection between the two is through suicide by murder or getting someone else to kill you. That is to get another person to kill you legally or illegally.
There is a good article called “The Psychology of Suicide-Murder and the Death Penalty” By K. van Wormer. She describes a phenomenon called “Suicide-murder” (Not the usual “murder-suicide”), because in this instance suicide is not viewed as a consequence of murder but as its cause.
One way to suicide is to behave in such a manner that some one else kills you
Some people will behave in such a manner so that the state can legally kill them either by the death penalty or by being so threatening to police they shoot him/her to death. So this person is seen as being suicidal and simply engaging in the act of suicide which is performed by the state.
Graffiti
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Comments
I don't know for sure about psychologically, but ethically, I don't see murder and suicide as the same thing. It is one thing to make a decision like that for the Self, but very different to murder.
I suppose if someone was in some sort of disturbed mental state at the time, their thinking on the subject could be quite different. I have heard of distraught individuals who believed they were helping someone by killing them, and I do believe that people suicide to spare themselves of something, that they see it as a helpful act, so perhaps this is one way in which it could be psychologically similar if someone views an act as a 'mercy killing'. Scary stuff, Tony.
Posted by: Lynn | Tuesday, 27 February 2007
Hard line call - suicide is pre meditated murder of a living person. Hard line call - so is abortion. Hard line call - so is helping someone die (i dont know how to spell it *giggles*)
It's just not that simple is it? But if we need to stick to the "one way of looking at things" then it could be how it's seen to be.
It's a big question on a very wide scale of probabilities. Also - we don't have the death penalty here. But we could always trick a police man into shooting us...
Posted by: Rosie | Tuesday, 27 February 2007
I would say that without a doubt there is a very big difference between murder and suicide ethically, practically and certainly legally. I was speaking more in terms of the psychology. The state of mind that a person is in when they murder or suicide.
We have all at times thought about killing self or others at some time. Fortunately very few act on either. So that takes a certain state of mind to actually seriously consider crossing that line and acting on those thoughts. It is a big jump indeed to think of killing a member of our own species. You can kill a member of any other species on the planet and that is not murder (or suicide for that matter!). But if we kill our own species then that of course is a very big deal.
graffiti
Posted by: Tony | Tuesday, 27 February 2007
Hi Tony,
Yes I agree with you Angela Schumann crossed the line. Out of the two cases that I mentioned her's probably deserved less sympathy. This is evident given that she had written on her child's stomach, " cause of death: Julio." Julio being her estranged partner, Julio Tumalan Nava, who had gained custody of their child. Angela's suicide- murder attempt therfore appeared to contain quite a lot of spite and anger, while Angela Davies' suicide, altho' successful seemed to be driven by more genuine mental health problems, and concerns about her son's future. Yes, suicide- murders are always wrong, altho' they all need to be treated as individual cases in all their particularity, not only to understand the actions of the people concerned, but to try to reduce suicides in the future.
Best wishes,
Nick.
P.S. Tony, Interesting you're not a big fan of travelling. Don't know why, but I kind've assumed you was!! N.
Posted by: Nick | Wednesday, 28 February 2007
Ahhh putting a dog to sleep is humane. Let a human suffer is humane? Suicide, is it an act of violence against oneself, it is not against the law. Murder an act toward another is against the law. The mind in all this seems a key or say a box of keys. If something is justified in my mind is it wrong? and according to whom? Laws, morality, values, public opinion, psychology? The death sentence is justice or punishment or is it. To kill because someone killed seems silly at minimum. Punishment is to discipline yet lethal injection is humane compared to years in a prison cell. Seems the lady made a suicide attempt, so was that against the law. The placing of a child in danger is against the law or attemtped murder at minimum. Yet her sentence seems so light and unfair to the child and to society as a whole. Clear message to others thinking the same thing. Prevention hardly not. How can psychology understand and reduce suicide and murder or attempted murder when the judicial system does not understand and increases the problem with cases such as this. Which has the most power and influence on society?
Posted by: Mitch | Wednesday, 28 February 2007
Hi Nick,
As you can see I added a new post on "travel and me". So I am a fan of travel as long as it is of a particular kind
Tony
Posted by: Tony | Wednesday, 28 February 2007
Hello Micth,
Interesting point about suicide being against the law. As I understand it at one point it was in Australia. That is why we have the term to "commit suicide" as in to commit a crime. I know that at this time it is not against the law, which of course is absurd to have it as being illegal. If one commits suicide how do you punish them for breaking the law!!!
Tony
Posted by: Tony | Wednesday, 28 February 2007
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