Wednesday, 09 April 2008
The demon
Eric Berne originally wrote about the demon in the book ‘What do you say after you say hello’.
He stated, “The demon is the jester in human existence and the joker in psychotherapy.... No matter how well the therapist plans his psychotherapy, the patient always has the upper hand. At the point when the therapist thinks he has the four aces, Jeder plays his joker, and the demon wins the pot. Then he skips merrily off, leaving the doctor to leaf through the deck trying to figure out what happened. Even if he is ready for it, there may be little he can do..... The demon first appears in the high chair, when Jeder scatters his food on the floor with a merry glint, waiting to see what his parents will do. If they make friends with it, it will go onto later mischief, and then perhaps into humorous fun and jokes. If they beat it down, it will lurk surly in the background, ready to leap out at an unguarded moment and scramble his life as it originally scrambled his food.” (Pp 122 - 123).
Dealing with a demon can feel like this to the therapist
Not all clients have a demon part as is described in their personality. I have never sought to work out the numbers in the clients that I have seen but I would expect it to be a small minority of clients.
Here is how one client describes the demon part of her:
She is small and ugly in a demanding sort of way. She has her hair down over her eyes - peeping out from under and shaking it all over when she wants to hide or tease. The body is not significant, it is just small. The biggest bit is the head. She watches out from under her hair with a sneaky, teasing look and then shakes her hair over her face and backs off when she needs to.
Demon?
She lives way down in the bottom in the pit of my stomach. Lying in wait to spring out at any time - and often I am not sure if she is going to or not. She sits right down in the bottomest corner on her knees by herself
She reacts or just acts, rather than thinks about things, but how she chooses what and where to, I do not understand. I know she must think, but it seems more like she just is. She knows people are not to be trusted, and she proves it. She knows she hates being touched. She knows things without thinking. She just leaps out and I often do not know when it happens. I do not know the why of things, just what is.
She hates to be called a ‘woman’, she reacts to that. When touched she feels burnt - the feelings are intense. This is a hard question - when thinking about what she feels I am confused or blank. I see a lot of screaming and screaming, jumping up and down and head shaking - a lot of triumphant laughter and glee. A feeling of enormous energy and strength of will. She feels intense hatred and a terror which results in screaming and screaming with head shaking. She feels triumphant and gleeful; “Ha, Ha”. She feels wary
More to come later on
Graffiti
20:15 Permalink | Comments (32) | Email this
Comments
Does sound like a challenge!
I cant seem to think of anyone that I have seen a glimpse of this "demon" inside!
Posted by: Kahless | Thursday, 10 April 2008
So this 'Demon', doesn't everyone have one? Oh - actually i think when they say that they're talking about their fears aren't they? That sounds so scary. I wonder if i have one. If i do, i hope mines at least some fun.
Do you mean something like - we're at a party and out of the blue i toss the contents of my glass over the head of someone just to see what will happen? Cause that's just fun isn't it? Or spray paint someones hair different colours while they're sleeping? (With coloured moose not actual spray paint!) It usually ends up being fun.
Gosh its nice to see you back again. I love conferences that when I come away its with lots of useful information - information that i will use that is, not just wads of paper and a big head.
Have a good day back then. Cheers...
roses
The 'demon' in this lady's life sounds so frightening.
Posted by: roses | Thursday, 10 April 2008
Hi Tony,
I hadn't heard of this in TA before. Sounds like that part of me that is kept well hidden and maybe not even acknowledged. Very interesting post and I'm looking forward to the follow up.
Cheers.........KazzaB
Posted by: KazzaB | Thursday, 10 April 2008
What is the therapist supposed to do with feelings like that Grafitti? Why wouldn't these type of clients fit in with "normal" therapeutic procedures by the therapist?
Whether its the Demon, Lilith or -neg Free Child attributes why would this demon come to therapy in the first place?
quenoath
Posted by: kenoath | Thursday, 10 April 2008
Hi Kahless,
They are usually kept out of sight but interestingly I think you tend to see them in people's blogs when people can talk about themselves and remain unidentified.
Tony
Posted by: Tony | Thursday, 10 April 2008
From what I have found Roses. If one does have this type of personality development when they read the case studies that I am now compiling on computer they just instantly know that part of them self that is similar.
So if you don't have that kind of reaction then your personality has not evolved in this way to have what I have called a 'demon' sub personality.
Tony
Posted by: Tony | Thursday, 10 April 2008
Hi KazzaB,
Thanks for your comment and it seems relevant to what I just wrote to Roses.
Your experience of it being well hidden is a commonly reported sign. I would suggest that in any future counselling you look at gaining more awareness of this part of self should it indeed be there at all.
Tony
Posted by: Tony | Thursday, 10 April 2008
Hello Kenoath,
I like your insight in seeing some Lilith qualities as being demon like, as Lilith is decribed in Kingsley's blog.
To deal with a demon sub personality or Lilith you are right one needs to sort of throw the therapy textbook out the window and be a bit different.
I wrote an article about the demon in 1987 and there were 4 cases presented. I am in the process of typing them out so I can have them in electronic form for a workshop that I am doing in a few weeks time.
It is just taking me a bit of time to type them. Once done I might put them in a blog post and talk a bit about how to deal with clients with this personality formation. So I should get around to answering your questions soon at least in an abbreviated form.
Graffiti
Posted by: Graffiti | Thursday, 10 April 2008
Sounds good Grafitti, a workshop on the Demon ego state. He does sound like an unusual 'character' to give some time to indeed.
kenoath
Posted by: kenoath | Thursday, 10 April 2008
Hi Tony,
I like the sound of the workshop Tony. I kind've wish I could attend, altho' maybe I'll be there in spirit- if not in person.
I'm looking forward to the next part of the Demon Tony, and the prospect of more articles on the subject.
Treat her well guys.
Nick
Posted by: Nick | Thursday, 10 April 2008
Hi Tony,
To be honest I am not sure I understand about the "demon" you describe (I dont get it as I am having troule visualising it) so I too look forward to when you post more.
Kahless.
Posted by: Kahless | Thursday, 10 April 2008
When I do a round at the workshop Nick, we will all see you in a chair in spirit.
Cheers
Tony
Posted by: Tony | Friday, 11 April 2008
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_B4Btcpr1yE
This writer has this guy pop up every now and again who does some stuff to people. Is this a demon?
roses
Posted by: roses | Friday, 11 April 2008
In my view Roses, the "demon" doesn't necessarily have to be pathological or evil. I do see in the opening frames of this Johnny Depp movie how the Demon might fit into the scheme of things though.
Someone is telling him to "not go back" he has to look around to see who is telling him this and then deccides by himself (his own intuition) to go back even though the voice is telling otherwise.
If we were to appropriate parts of personality in this case, I am not sure which part of Depp personality would be the Demon and which is the intuitive part? The "voice" in the back of the car or Depps refusal to drive away?
I think the "Demon" as Grafitti writes about it is either a split off part of child ego state that seems to opperate without consultation to any other ego state. I don't wish to prempt the next blog here but I suppose the person with a demon ego state may get misunderstood a lot because the child feelings and impulses can be very different to that of the Demon's expression and needs. Its the bit on the outside of personality (child ego) that expresses itself much like Tourette's syndrome.
I presume there is a chance that via role modelling a parents Demon Child may exist in the Parent Ego state of a person (child in the parent ego state) and may sound rather witchy or scathing, paranoid, condeming or even manipulative.
kenoath
Posted by: kenoath | Friday, 11 April 2008
I will look forward to the future post on this. Unless I am misunderstanding, which I very well may be, I have a 'demon'. I mostly like it. It's really just a backbone that has little or no tact, but sometimes tact is overrated and is not always warranted. A very strong backbone is generally demonized, you know. Especially in a woman. I make no apologies for mine.
I just thought of something quite funny. My husband has said about me, "She's a very nice person, but she can break evil on someone if she needs to." Damn straight I can!
Posted by: Lynn | Friday, 11 April 2008
I am not the best diplomat Lynn and like you I tend to own my "demon" even if "he" seems incongruent to the rest of me.
kenoath
Posted by: kenoath | Friday, 11 April 2008
Actually Lynn, you sound like a fun kind of person. I'm generally a bubbly fun but shy kind of introverted extrovert. I don't take lightly to fools. I either cave in or step up. I'm actually not a nice person. Mostly i'm seen that way because i don't dally much with the truth when it needs to be made apparent (about myself or others).
Its kind of like, if it's the hair that's a problem then i'll just rip off the bandaid but if its the sore that's the problem then we're in for the long hall (slow and painful but its safe).
I have no idea why i'm saying this - ohh yeah, the last bit of your comment. Umm, i'm going now Lynn. I'm probably just yapping because i can.
And Ken, i don't want to tell you the outcome, but the voice is a person that Johnny Depp actually sees out side of himself and talks to. I don't like to wreck movies for others so i guess to understand it - its best if you watch it. Other wise... it doesn't really matter i suppose.
Happy weekend everyone - roses
Posted by: roses | Friday, 11 April 2008
Like Kenoath Roses,
I would see this personality formation as not falling into the usual three ego state structure. It is something else like kenoath suggests. However that is the theory part and it really is about dealing with it in therapy.
Some clients will seemingly do things that are most counter productive to themselves and they can at times seek to undermine their own therapy. It in one sense becomes a battle between the client and the therapist in the clients eyes at least. This is the signs that I am looking for when investigating for a possible demon sub personality
Tony
Posted by: Tony | Friday, 11 April 2008
Hi Lynn,
Maybe your husband is right in his observations of you. As I said above some people will undermine their own therapy because there is this part that feels like it has to no matter what. It will have its reasons and as Berne says, just as the client has done all the right things and made good process, along comes the demon and just wrecks everything.
Many a therapist then will then seek to deal with the demon in a most counter productive manner that the demon will just sit back and watch with glee.
Good to hear from you my friend
Tony
Posted by: Tony | Friday, 11 April 2008
You are a very perceptive man, Tony. I see that you know it was my therapist the demon sought to devour. However, the demon was not trying to ruin the therapy. The demon is not evil. The 'demon' is a protector who does not mind being vicious to protect the defenseless. She was simply making sure that the therapy would be safe and with a person who was appropriate for little children. The demon is an angel in a clever disguise. A competent, clever and very strong protector for the helpless. No harm can come to the children through any therapy while the demon is listening. And she is always listening and capable of launching an attack as soon as the child can be moved out of the way without being traumatized. The demon would never, ever act unless an innocent or helpless one was being put in harm's way in some manner. Sometimes the words of a therapist can do this without the therapist understanding that some potential harm is being spoken. So much is dependent on the history of the client.
My therapist once tried to deal with the demon in an unproductive way, as you say. He could not win against it. No one can. I think he is referring to my so-called demon when he refers to my 'fierceness' now. A smart man. Give a warrior her due and you give her no reason to see you as the enemy. Respect has to be mutual. I love my demon. And my therapist, too, now that they are on the same page. I think they can be on the same page only because he understands the true nature of the 'beast'. Not evil, but a very strong protector who will not be fooled or defeated. I wrote to you once about the day that I first experienced the presence of the demon. It was she who was awakened to attack that vile man who did the terrible thing I told you of. She wanted to kill him, but she didn't because it would have been harmful to the children if their mother had gone to jail. You see? The demon protects the external children, too. The demon is good. I love her.
Posted by: Lynn | Friday, 11 April 2008
I am still trying to grasp this one. What is the difference between demon and RC?
When I am being obstructive for its own sake, isn't that RC?
If I self sabotage is that demon?
Posted by: kahless | Friday, 11 April 2008
I love your demon too Lynn.
Actually maybe I am starting to understand. Or maybe not!
Graffiti I would really appreciate it if you could explain the difference between Demon and Rc
Posted by: kahless | Friday, 11 April 2008
Here's a hint, my sweet and lovely friend. Demons write very blunt, foul-mouthed, and entertaining headers when children are injured by interlopers who revel in societal blindness. At least mine does. :-)
Demons launch off with profane verbal attacks if a therapist says certain words that were used in the past to torment little children.
Demons turn the tables on stalkers and scare the bejesus out of them and then laugh hysterically about it.
Demons will effortlessly beat the blood and the snot out of a full-grown man without a moment's hesitation when he dares to lay an unscrupulous hand (or other part) on one of her external children. Then she will refuse to let him use the bathroom. When she can finally tell by the smell, that he really must go (even demons consider the carpet), she makes him leave the door open so he cannot leave via the bathroom window before she can raise an alarm or give chase. And also so he will be humiliated. This entertains her.
Hopefully, this is not too freaky or scary. I love you, K.
I think self-sabotage can be many things. Maybe a habit, a learned behaviour, or a way to 'put the brakes' on something.
Posted by: Lynn | Friday, 11 April 2008
Sounds like unaquainted revenge and lust for vengance. Not quite hate though. Hate wouldn't let him go to the toilet, it would just render him imovable until the mess just slowly (and the slower the better) rotted him to death. Death would be too sweet for him. The longer he lived being eaten alive by the rot the better. Hate would check in and see how it was going, relishing in the stench and the agony. That's a kind of gentle hate. But your 'demon' isn't quite there yet is she?
Posted by: roses | Friday, 11 April 2008
It is not freaky or scarey reading it. Not sure I would like to be on the receiving end but then again I never would be.
To me you are describing a demon which is understandable and acceptable.
I want a demon!!!
Do I have one. I can think of times I am self sabotaging - but I put that down to my fuck the world, RC part. Occaisionally if I want to be challenging I certainly can be. My old counsellor didn't like it and was spiteful which led to the downfall of the relationship.
Posted by: kahless | Friday, 11 April 2008
Thats funny Kahless, "I want a demon". Sounds like you gave that counsellor a good testing out to whether he could handle you.
A new BMW sports car seems to have brought the Demon out in my brother in law. Perhaps that is his Free Child bursting out for years of wanting something special.
Posted by: kenoath | Saturday, 12 April 2008
The RC engages with the Parent within the system according to P A C but the Demon couldn't give a toss! I don't think he/she is really out of the "system" but at times has
co-executive functioning. I think the Artistic Criminal is a bit on the demon side of things. They get caught, but the next night they are out grafittying again.
k
Posted by: kenoath | Saturday, 12 April 2008
I agree with you Lynn that the demon is not there to ruin therapy but that can happen if it is dealt with the wrong way. Yes its goal is to do what it thinks is most right for itself in a protective way even if that means destroying self which sounds a bit weird.
it sounds like you could be describing some features of this form of personality structure.
Tony
Posted by: Tony | Saturday, 12 April 2008
You want a demon Kahless!!
You made me laugh. It sounds like you kind of see it as this thing that some kids have and others don't like the latest computer game or latest Harry Potter book.
Everyone has a RC and only a small group have this aspect of their script. So that is one difference between them and the demon is more like a separate part of the personality almost a very rudimentary Multiple Personality formation but it is definately not that.
The RC can be very self defeating as you say just like the demon can be so they are similar in that way but they are doing it from very different positions.
From a therapy point of view it is best not to have one as it just makes things harder and thus therapy probably would be longer than otherwise.
The demon was one of the things that I won the Goulding Award for. Bob Goulding mentions it in his speech. See
http://video.google.com.au/videoplay?docid=-2719041059081447006
Cheers
Tony
Posted by: Tony | Saturday, 12 April 2008
Hello Kenoath,
Interesting mention of the Criminal mind and the demon. They both can have that self defeating and self destructive quality.
Cheers
Graffiti
Posted by: Graffiti | Saturday, 12 April 2008
Hi Kennoath, thanks for your comment; it was dead helpful.
Hi Tony,
Having read the post a few above I can now say,
I DONT want a demon!!
:-)
Though hey, i still love others demons.
Cool though, I am glad I made you and Kennoath laugh. I like it when people laugh.
Thanks for the link. I will check it out tomorrow as Mrs K is asleep right now and I dont want to make any noise.
Kah.
Posted by: Kahless | Sunday, 13 April 2008
Hope you had a good sleep Kahless
Tony
Posted by: Tony | Sunday, 13 April 2008
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