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Wednesday, 16 April 2008
Naive suicide
This is a piece of dialogue that came from an ABC radio interview.
I have put in upper case the parts I wish to point out
Fifteen-year-old South Eastern suburbs Melbourne school girl Holly, talks about her suicide attempts.
HOLLY: When my parents, probably. They separated and that and just a lot of little failures with school, with friendships, that sort of thing. It just felt as though it was all like falling down on me and, yeah. I changed a few friendship group type things and, and school, I wasn't doing as well as I used to and so I had to try a lot harder but I figured I didn't have to do the work and so, yeah. It just all led to this.
LUISA SACCOTELLI: And then what happened? One day you thought .?
HOLLY: Well I basically thought, you know, nothing's going right. I'm just not good enough any more. Too many things. Too many bad things have happened, there's no point continuing. All that sort of thing that just went through my head and I'm like, yeah, WELL I MIGHT AS WELL GO DO IT. Yeah.
LUISA SACCOTELLI: And so did you then attempt suicide?
HOLLY: Em, yeah. Yeah, a few times.
LUISA SACCOTELLI: So do you think the fact that you failed - to use a terrible term - the fact that you failed meant that you really didn't want to?
HOLLY: I think deep down I knew I didn't want to LEAVE because I mean deep down I knew that I was something. Just on the outside I just... It felt as though I was failing too much. I just wasn't good enough and I'D NEVER ACTUALLY REALISED THE EXTENT OF WHAT I WAS DOING. I JUST DIDN'T SEE IT AS A SERIOUS THING.
--------------------------
Holly never actually uses the word suicide. Instead she talks about going and doing IT, or she talks about leaving. And her final comment clearly shows the misunderstanding that she has of what she was attempting to do. It simply had not been thought through and shows a naive child like understanding of attempting to take ones own life. It is quite possible that murderous teenagers are of the same state of mind.
When assessing suicide risk this is disconcerting. As mentioned in a previous post one can do a suicide decision interview and that is most informative, but with teenagers there is this extra component that may render the results of such an assessment inconclusive.
With teenagers one needs to have an extra interview and make a risk assessment based on that. Teenagers have less predictability than adults in this way.
Graffiti
10:55 Permalink | Comments (63) | Email this
Comments
No.
I think if you want to go, you can just go. Its a pretty simple thing. I mean, to realise any goals one might have, it takes a certain amount of pain, sweat, tears, effort. If going is your goal, then it will just take some pain, sweat, tears, effort. No one can know what its like to be gone until you go. Like the add on telly - 'you'll never never know if you never never go'.
I don't think anyone who's alive can know what its like to be really dead. But i have seen what its like to be the ones left behind. That just really bad.
roses
Posted by: roses | Wednesday, 16 April 2008
While i was writing that comment i wasn't in the least big afraid of the thoughts i was having. Then i went away from here and this post did the usual loops in my head while i was focusing on other stuff.
Then it struck me - i'm a fraid to die. If dying wasn't so frightening then i would be dead now. I don't know what to think about being dead but i do know what its like to be alive and if its only our body that feels then... being dead can't be all that bad.
But dying? Well that looks realy painful and frightening. I've seen it on telly and knew someone who died of aids. To touch his skin to give him a peck on the cheek was so totally painful. Just a kiss on his cheek Tony! What if - we want to get to the 'dead' bit but totally mess up the 'dying' bit. OUCH!!
roses
Posted by: roses | Wednesday, 16 April 2008
Sometimes even adults say 'IT' instead of suicide. Sometimes it is because they have not really discussed suicide with anyone before and they are ashamed about their thoughts of it, or embarrassed about some past attempt that they have tried to 'put behind them'.
Posted by: Lynn | Wednesday, 16 April 2008
Kenoath,
that reminds me. That person you wrote about a long time ago who wanted no more and he was going to ring you.
What happened?
Tony,
See I don't even like using the word like Lynn said!!!
:-)
Posted by: kahless | Wednesday, 16 April 2008
Hi Roses,
Don't be frightened of your mortality. It is just another step in the human developmental cycle. Live in the here and now and enjoy the day and when you die you die
Cheers
Tony
Posted by: Tony | Wednesday, 16 April 2008
Good comments Lynn and I would agree that there are many adults out there are too scared to say the "S" word.
Take care my friend
Tony
Posted by: Tony | Wednesday, 16 April 2008
Hi Kahless,
I remember about kenoath's friend as well?
Go on kahless you can say the word!
Tony
Posted by: Tony | Wednesday, 16 April 2008
Ok.
Posted by: roses | Wednesday, 16 April 2008
why do people have trouble saying suicide?? It's just a word when all's said and done :-)
Posted by: Madeleine | Wednesday, 16 April 2008
Tony?
"and when you die you die"
I love it when you state the obvious!
Posted by: roses | Wednesday, 16 April 2008
I've got a question on my blog
http://gezunda.blogspot.com/
Posted by: Madeleine | Wednesday, 16 April 2008
But is it really just a word Madeleine?
Graffiti
Posted by: Tony | Wednesday, 16 April 2008
Roses,
You should see what happens when I state the oblivious!
Graffiti
Posted by: Tony | Wednesday, 16 April 2008
It is just a word, Graffiti. It is the connotations that society has put on the word that gives it power. I could change the word suicide to glopide, meaning the same thing, but the connotations would be different.
Posted by: Madeleine | Wednesday, 16 April 2008
You can't change it to glopide Madeleine,
because I looked that word up in the dictionary and it is not a real word.
Graffiti
Posted by: Graffiti | Wednesday, 16 April 2008
I was going to comment on your blog Roseymosie but I can't because you have to have a blogger blog, and the last thing in the world I need is another blog.
Cheers
Graffiti
Posted by: Graffiti | Wednesday, 16 April 2008
Go on the Tony. State it. I'm just bursting to see what happens!
roses
Posted by: roses | Wednesday, 16 April 2008
Madeleine?
Glopide - glow in the dark type of ... bread? Great with avacardo, chicken and cheese?
Posted by: roses | Wednesday, 16 April 2008
I didn't think you needed to join blogger, Tony. You can sign in as anonymous, I'm pretty sure. I picked blogger for that reason.
Posted by: Madeleine | Wednesday, 16 April 2008
But glopide could become a real word if people use it instead of suicide and then it would get it's own connotations :-)
Posted by: Madeleine | Wednesday, 16 April 2008
No, cannot log in Madeleine,
When I go there there is no option for anonymous to comment.
but glopide cant be a word because it is not a real one
Graffiti
Posted by: Graffiti | Wednesday, 16 April 2008
That's a bummer cause I'd almost decided on Blogger for when I go travelling. bugger !!
It's on blogstream as well Graffiti
Posted by: Madeleine | Wednesday, 16 April 2008
Try again, just changed the settings. I thought it was open to anyone.
Posted by: Madeleine | Wednesday, 16 April 2008
the SuIcIdE GUy, left the nut farm he was on (he was literally on a macadamean nut farm.) and headed south and lived on the streets. He had a tent. He became disorientated and was lucky enough to get helped by some kind Church people. He has a place to live and they are trying to get him the treatment he needs. We talked about him going to the "Nut House", he was very depressed, alive and in good hands. So he didn't do it, he did something else, well for however long 'it' lasts.
kenoath
Posted by: kenoath | Wednesday, 16 April 2008
Thanks for the update Kenoath.
If we recognise the term Glopide, does it not then become a real word? This post makes me think of the theme tune to MASH. Remember it?
"That suicide is painless,
It brings on many changes
And I can take or leave it if I please.
And you can do the same thing if you please."
Anyway, I am off point to what I wanted to say.
Hey Tony, I can say it... suicide suicide suicide. Dont like the word really but I have now problem if someone wants to be dead. Their life, their choice.
Posted by: Kahless | Thursday, 17 April 2008
Of course I am in favour of intervention for minors.
ie you have to have an age of consent for suicide.
:-)
Sorry, I am being a wee bit flippant. I would intervene and try and help someone if they were going to top themselves.
Posted by: Kahless | Thursday, 17 April 2008
More and more people are starting to feel that euthanasia is okay for someone who is physically ill. Why is it not okay for someone who is mentally ill to suicide if they feel like has nothing left to offer.
Posted by: Madeleine | Thursday, 17 April 2008
Oh, I see. Because things aren't always as black and white as we'd like. Because things are always attached. And because we wanted those things to be attached in the first place. There fore we have a responsibility to the things we've allowed to be attached to our lives.
So - if some one suicides and no one notices, did it happen?
Answer - yes. Because we're all attached in reality (one way or another) And it's the 'us' or 'we' that makes the whole. Each individual makes the whole. So everyone matters. And if everyone matters then when some one is gone then they leave a hole somewhere.
There fore, there's always a hole to fill one way or another.
roses
Posted by: roses | Thursday, 17 April 2008
Ohh sorry about the suppressed premises all over the place in that comment. Still only learning about ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING!!!!
Cheers...
Posted by: roses | Thursday, 17 April 2008
Yes Kahless,
You have said the word. I too had thought of the MASH theme song and considered a YouTube presentation.
I didn't find you flippant and yes it is quite a question to consider. When to intervene and when not to?
I suppose that question will never get a clear answer.
Tony
Posted by: Tony | Thursday, 17 April 2008
Thanks for the update Kenoath,
Wasn't his name Pit Bull or Pit Monster or something like that?
Graffiti
Posted by: Tony | Thursday, 17 April 2008
Roses, that is profound commentary.
"if some one suicides and no one notices, did it happen?"
Is this coming from your uni studies. Perhaps in the universe when one person dies a new hole is created and it never is refilled again?
Tony
Posted by: Tony | Thursday, 17 April 2008
No Tony.
I'm still on gramma, sentence construction, premises and validity, argument soundness and stuff like that. Academic writing so to speak.
I have read your stuff and Kens stuff. I have read 3 Eric Berne's books so i can only make deductions out of that. It's not that great cause i don't know anything much - but this just popped into my head after i read Madeleines question on her blog and here just now.
I've learned about 'suppressed premises'. They are the statements not made but eluded to by statements that are made. Speech acts in an argument or statements that cause us to think related things that aren't spoken but are assumed known. e.g.
The cat sat on the mat therefore Rex is happy. Supressed premise = Rex is the cat?
Stuff like that. In the comment i made there's a LOT of underpinning thought/assumptions that aren't spoken. I appologized for that because it's just too big a subject.
The universe? Well perhaps the hole is filled because we need the Whole (Its all in our heads.. see the words "we need"). But the universe or the whole will be different when the gap is filled with something or someone that is different. Therefore our never ending need to learn to cope and to accept change?
roses
Posted by: roses | Thursday, 17 April 2008
No Tony.
I'm still on gramma, sentence construction, premises and validity, argument soundness and stuff like that. Academic writing so to speak.
I have read your stuff and Kens stuff. I have read 3 Eric Berne's books so i can only make deductions out of that. It's not that great cause i don't know anything much - but this just popped into my head after i read Madeleines question on her blog and here just now.
I've learned about 'suppressed premises'. They are the statements not made but eluded to by statements that are made. Speech acts in an argument or statements that cause us to think related things that aren't spoken but are assumed known. e.g.
The cat sat on the mat therefore Rex is happy. Supressed premise = Rex is the cat?
Stuff like that. In the comment i made there's a LOT of underpinning thought/assumptions that aren't spoken. I appologized for that because it's just too big a subject.
The universe? Well perhaps the hole is filled because we need the Whole (Its all in our heads.. see the words "we need"). But the universe or the whole will be different when the gap is filled with something or someone that is different. Therefore our never ending need to learn to cope and to accept change?
roses
Posted by: roses | Thursday, 17 April 2008
suppressed premises Roses. I thought that was a bordello or a Bikies lair. It sounds a bit like the old rhetoric statements.
Comments that are meant to be factual, Adult to Adult but instead, the statement is directed at the Child for leverage.
I am pretty thrilled to be included on your reading list Roses, and it does sound like you are enjoying the grammar stuff.
kenoath
Posted by: kenoath | Thursday, 17 April 2008
What on earth is a "suppressed premise", Roses. I must admit, I kinda like Kenoath's understanding :-)
Posted by: Madeleine | Thursday, 17 April 2008
Ken,
It feels like all i do is breathe in. It just keeps on filling inside of me to bursting and i am so very grateful for every opportunity to exhale somewhere - even when it's usually the smallest puff of breath. I don't think anyone can know how much i appreciate you guys. Its probably not possible for anyone to understand that - a totally unrealistic expectation i won't put on you... but i know, and that will have to do.
Of course you're on my reading list - you know you're on my reading list. And yes, i love the stuff i'm learning right now. It makes sense to see things as they are -
Ohh! So that's what the effect of rhetoric is? Ohh it's a trick! Because the Adult doesn't use emotion so much execpt for where they infect (or what ever you call it) each other, but the child is practically all emotion. So mere rhetoric (no real fact) is when someone is bullying you but just plain rhetoric has an element of reason (or fact kind of) in it so it's just someone trying to convince you of something?
Oh my goodness - so when i'm being all emotional - that's my child ego having a go? Where do my hormonal ups and downs come in to that? How does that work?
Posted by: roses | Thursday, 17 April 2008
As far as i can make out Madeleine, sentences are how we express our speech meaning. A good sentence has clause/s. Each clause is made up of a noun of somekind and a preticate. E.g. Apples are red. 'Apples' is the subject while 'are red' is the predicate. Noun+predicate (contains a finite verb.)
When someone says a sentence we try to find out what they mean or fine the 'speech act'. E.g. What's a nice girl like you doing in a place like this? = I find you attractive.
According to by lessons - An argument = a set of propositions, one of which is the conclusion, but also atleast one premise that will support that conclusion. E.g. (Gosh i hope it's not too bad to use Morgan Luck's examples but here goes...)
Premise 1 - Every democracy contains only happy people
Premise 2 - Australia is a democracy
Therefore
Conclusion - Australia contains only happy people.
A suppressed premise is one that isn't stated but assumed as a premise that supports the conclusion.
Premise 1 - Glopide is a free will choice
Premise 2 - Depression is a cruel state
There fore
Conclusion - Depressed people have a right to Glopide.
Suppressed Premise - Glopide is killing oneself.
Assuming everyone automatically understands what glopide means, is not helpful in communication.
That's what i did in my comment. I didn't say so much!
roses
Posted by: roses | Thursday, 17 April 2008
Actually i think i need to go and study that a tad more Madeleine. And i think the example isn't a good one. When i understand it more i'm sure i'll have better examples for you. Cheers to you...
Posted by: roses | Thursday, 17 April 2008
Thanks for that Roses. I've just found a site which describes it as well.
http://www.bvtpublishing.com/files/BV06Chapter08.pdf
Makes sense now.
Posted by: Madeleine | Thursday, 17 April 2008
Ohh Madeleine! Thank you thank you! I popped it in my 'favorites'. I didn't read it all - some people are so good at explaining what they mean aren't they?
roses
I have an assessment today about all this stuff. I'm so scared! I hope i do ok. Cheers...
Posted by: roses | Thursday, 17 April 2008
No Ken. I've thought about it. The child ego isn't run by emotions. Do emotions have anything to do with it? I don't think so. So does that mean that emotions are a chemical thing where as ego states are not. Hang on! Our chemical state has a lot to do with how we are feeling at any given time. Do our ego states have sway in our chemical makeup? Yes - they do. But it's not quite so cut and dried as that is it?
Our ego transactions are linked to our chemical makeup by either end of the person. Perhaps by the mind or the emotions or the physical health or circumstances?
Who even cares! Sheesh - back to academic writing!
Oh my goodness - i hope i pass!
Posted by: roses | Thursday, 17 April 2008
You are welcome Roses. I was going to wish you good luck for your assessment today, but figured you didn't need luck. So go knock em dead, Roses.
Posted by: Madeleine | Thursday, 17 April 2008
Thanks Madeleine
roses
Posted by: roses | Thursday, 17 April 2008
Hope it went well Roses. I decided long ago that I am never going to take exams that require study again.
Tony, I remember reading a book in my 20s about suicide. Most of the book was talking to people who knew or thought they knew somone who was suicidal. But there was one chapter aimed at readers who are suicidal themselves. Basically it said if you are feeling suicidal then do it. Obviously if you are feeling that way and noone knows then there isn't someone who cares.
This really intrigued me as I thought that wasn't what you're meant to say - go ahead and do it. lol!
Posted by: kahless | Thursday, 17 April 2008
Kahless,
I just did it. I hope to go again at 9 tonight. Holy smokes i feel GREAT!! I think i'll go get some dinner and soak in the tub for a bit. Oh my goodness i feel good. It was so frightening that i couldn't even see the screen for atlease the first 10 mins or so. But now? I feel wonderful.
Gosh that was fun! I don't know how i went but what a buzz!
roses
Posted by: roses | Thursday, 17 April 2008
Kahless, did you mean to say "I am never going to take exams that require study again." LOL.
Posted by: Madeleine | Thursday, 17 April 2008
Well done, Roses. Told you you could do it !!
Posted by: Madeleine | Thursday, 17 April 2008
Madeleine,
I am going to embarassingly say I don't know what is funny???
Can you explain?
Posted by: kahless | Thursday, 17 April 2008
Is the post title apt in this case?
Lol
Posted by: kahless | Thursday, 17 April 2008
Kahless,
What i read from her comment was that you're never going to take exams that require study - but generally exams are the result of study. Even in the Doctors office.
Thank you Madeleine,
We didn't find out how well we went straight away with this time. I'm kind of soaking in the euphoria of post-terror at the moment. I'll have to pluck up the courage to ask what my results are - but that's later. This after glow is wonderful. *Sigh* LG...
roses
Posted by: roses | Thursday, 17 April 2008
Well done to you Roses.
Out of the comfort zone!!!
Way to go grrrll
Tony
Posted by: Tony | Thursday, 17 April 2008
Last time I looked Kahless you were up in front of people giving a presentation.
Sounds to me it would be easier to an exam you had to study for!!
Tony
Posted by: Tony | Thursday, 17 April 2008
So what you were saying Kahless is that you will take exams only if they don't require study :-)
Posted by: Madeleine | Thursday, 17 April 2008
Comfort zone? Coming here and commenting is out of my comfort zone! Gosh - you never know what you're going to get!
But thank you Mr Graffiti Sir. I'm so glad it's over and i want to do it again! But i don't know if i can or if that's wise. Gosh it feels good though.
I hope you feel good too. Cheers
roses
Posted by: roses | Thursday, 17 April 2008
Ok I get it now. I promised myself years ago that I wouldn't put myself through the hassle of committed study. Not for. Had a gutful.
Yes, I would prefer a doctor knowong what he is doing in a medical exam. Mind you it seems half of them don't have a clue despite the education.
Yes maybe the presentation is a nightmare but it is shortlived and its practical.
Posted by: kahless | Thursday, 17 April 2008
I was thinking about the post before this one, and now this one... that this reasoning makes sense when you think about child soldiers. It must be so easy to convince a child that killing is not as serious as it seems. If children can't comprehend death, and they're not good at expressing themselves, they're going to be easy to manipulate.
Posted by: April | Friday, 18 April 2008
I am convinced that teenagers go through this patch where they still have the magical thinking of a child - including being present after death to see what happens and the growing existential adult horror that they wont.
Posted by: Queen Vixen | Friday, 18 April 2008
No.
It's plain to me that i have no clue of anything! That this venture is rediculous and i'm the fool of all fools!!!!!
So Sucks!
roses
Posted by: roses | Friday, 18 April 2008
That is a good point April,
I hadn't thought about the idea of child soldiers.
Yes as you say they could be manipulated like that
Cheers
Graffiti
Posted by: Tony | Friday, 18 April 2008
Hello QV,
Perhaps one could say that the Adult is still immature and not robust so they can relatively easily slip into more childlike thinking
Tony
Posted by: Tony | Friday, 18 April 2008
Hi Roses,
You are not a fool and I hope things are going OK for you
Tony
Posted by: Tony | Friday, 18 April 2008
I'm hormonal - i think guys get hormonal too so i think you probably understand (although you may not be aware of it). I think i did really badly on that last assessment and i'm angry. I just want to cry and break things but then i'd just have to clean up the mess, so hang that! I want to whinge but i just can't stand it - so i'm doing it anyway, just to get up my nose!
Why does everything have to suck so badly in the hugest way?
I'm chucking the biggest tantrum in the world and enjoying every moment of it! I want to rip something's head off and watch it squirm and die but i don't think i could live with the memory so - hang that too!
I want to eat the worlds supply of chocolate and just explode and die but... chocolate gets really boring after awhile. I know it's not the same as sweetened milk but in reality that's what it consists of and that's just too boring, don't you think?
I'm going to go and enjoy myself and mope around like the pathetic loser i want to feel like I am right now because i have so much more studing to do and i really want to do well.
Yep - that's where i'm at right now. I'm really looking forward to feeling really bad for a bit because my hubby will be home soon and i won't have the opportunity again for quite a while. Bumma!
Have a great day won't you. I am!
roses
Posted by: roses | Friday, 18 April 2008