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Saturday, 19 April 2008
Extractive identification - Part 2
It is interesting reading the comments here and having heard the comments about extractive identification at the workshop a week ago. There is some similarity.
One needs to distinguish between extractive identification and other processes like reflection and active listening with a client. They are quite different.
Things like reflective listening are a check out by the therapist. They may say such things as, “What I hear you saying is...” or “I understand your point as being....”. Or the therapist may simply reflect back to the client what they have heard them say or seen them do.
Reflection is a common therapeutic task.
On the other hand extractive identification is precisely that, identification on the part of the therapist. This makes it a more personal or intimate experience on behalf of the therapist. The therapist’s own Child ego state make a sort of connection with the client’s Child. The therapist thus has some form of emotive reaction about the client. The boundary between the therapist and client becomes a bit confused and thus the therapist can ‘feel the clients’ feelings, or the therapist ends up feeling the same way the client is.
So my client was at that time experiencing the devastation of the 7 year old who had felt completely abandoned. I as the therapist was to some extent experiencing those same feelings and thus I get my understanding of the client’s feelings in that way. This is what identification is, so it is much more than simple reflection or active listening.
In extractive identification there is more contact between client and therapist and then the therapist in essence states their own feeling reaction to the client and this is how they understand what the client is feeling. (This is the danger with identification as sometimes the therapist has a different feeling than the client is having but they think they are having the same one). So in this sense it is also not just a reflection. It is the therapist stating their own feelings.
Identification involves boundary fusion
This some will argue, is where the therapist steals from the client. When I told my client about what I saw as the devastating feelings of complete abandonment I had stopped the client from ever coming to their own realisation about that. I had stolen the opportunity for them to ever make a self discovery on that point, as soon as I said it. They are not permitted to do self realisation, instead the realisation is placed upon them by me. I had extracted the self experience from the client. I had stolen it from them.
Therapists at a conference on extractive identification
This has further implications for the relationship between client and therapist. In extractive identification I decide when the client was ready for the realisation. I do not leave it up to the client to decide for himself. In essence I am saying that I, the therapist, know what is best for the client and they do not.
This will then instantly generate a feeling of anxiety and a sense of insecurity in the client. What if I get the next one wrong?. By identifying I am going into the private and intimate world of the client and in extractive identification I am then going to expose that to the client and perhaps a whole group of people if it is group therapy. If ill timed, or my judgement is wrong then by doing such extractive identification I can insult or even assault the client with such an ‘extraction’. If I leave it up to the client to decide when he is ready for the realisation then this can never happen and the client will feel more secure in their relationship with the therapist.
I'm in their hands so I hope they know what they are doing.
Graffiti
18:47 Permalink | Comments (49) | Email this
Comments
But you won't. Not if there are any doubts especially in public as in group therapy. Tony. Come on! You won't will you...
There are times when you will connect with the client and you will catch something. I hope you think to not speak first!
We humans have abilities we just can't understand and what some may call 'extractive identification' others may call something else. It isn't a game.
Take care of you... roses
Posted by: roses | Saturday, 19 April 2008
Tony,
I was watching a movie on telly. 40 days and 40 nights. But then i had to come in here to check out what you'd written. I'm going back to the movie. TTYL
roses
Posted by: roses | Saturday, 19 April 2008
So did you do it on purpose, or was it one of those situations where you say something and then realise that it would have been better not to say anything??
Posted by: Madeleine | Saturday, 19 April 2008
Is the client aware that your child ego state is making a sort of connection. Does that inself impact?
Posted by: Kahless | Sunday, 20 April 2008
I hope we know what we are doing too Grafitti
kenoath
Posted by: kenoath | Sunday, 20 April 2008
Good question Kahless,
If the client is not openly aware of it she would definitely be aware of it at an unconscious level. And this is one of the very subtle effects on the therapeutic relationship if one choose to do extractive identification or not.
The client would certainly feel if the therapist makes a connection via identification or not.
Tony
Posted by: Tony | Sunday, 20 April 2008
Kenoath and Madeleine,
As you both know procedures like extractive identification are very common in counselling these days. This post was an attempt to articulate what extractive identification is and the effects that it can have on the counselling situation. The next question I suppose the counsellor can ask self is do I want to do extractive identification?
If the answer is no, then how would one then go about counselling?.
Graffiti
Posted by: Graffiti | Sunday, 20 April 2008
The Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmare school of therapy has cornered the Extractive Indentification market it seems.
Then again, he is dealing with some really thick chefs who discount they have any problems to begin with. I must say, that I wouldn't tolerate that style of therapy for too long.
I wonder whether some styles of therapy are just non incorperative for any one person, that ones bones in the end reject any integration into ones 'being'. I don't think one can outrightly say that their bones "will" absorb something different and that that may eventually be seen as a genuine aspect of a persons approach. Its up to ones bones (and clients) to make such decisions. Lord Ramsay might say "you will fucking do this" "yes-yes?"
kenoath
Posted by: kenoath | Sunday, 20 April 2008
I watch that Ramsay TV show as well Kenoath,
Such a polite british gent!
People being non-incorporative?
I would imagine that it is a matter of degree and varies for each person. I think one would have to look long and hard to find a person who did not incorporate identifiactions and so forth.
Graffiti
Posted by: Graffiti | Sunday, 20 April 2008
I'd want to slam him in the face with the biggest cast iron pan i could find and actually swing.
I love the show.
Posted by: roses | Sunday, 20 April 2008
Perhaps the show is really about anger management Roses instead of cooking.
Grafitti, with regard to Relational TA, and the using Extractive Indentification methods, I have often wondered if there was a lack of empathy involved the client would indeed feel ripped off.
kenoath
Posted by: kenoath | Monday, 21 April 2008
Yes Roses Mr Ramsey would be good for anger management classes.
I would consider if it is even possible for the therapist to believe they were dong a relational psychotherapy and there be a lack of empathy on their behalf Kenoath.
So if the client was specifically looking for a relational type of approach (which most would not be able to articulate to that degree) then yes to my mind they would be getting ripped off Kenoath
Graffiti
Posted by: Graffiti | Monday, 21 April 2008
I didn't ever cross my mind that it was about cooking! But then again, it is about that - kind of - i guess.
I thought it was about teaching people, with no or very little business training or sense what so ever, how to run a successful business. I thought it was about politics (Legal requirements - food and premises hygene - tax etc.) administration (bookings, paper work organizational skills, roster, and people management) and objectivity (puting the competent people in the right place for the right reasons regardless of your relationship with them). That's why he's the way he is.
Kind of business 101. But yeah... there's cooking in there somewhere too i suppose.
There you go - i learn something new every moment of every day!
Roses
Posted by: roses | Monday, 21 April 2008
I am sorry we export such crap TV. I watched for a bit then he wears thin after a while. Now Dr Who I would recommend.
But then again I love Kath and Kim.
Posted by: kahless | Tuesday, 22 April 2008
hope you got the email with limestone details Grafitti
k
Posted by: kenoath | Tuesday, 22 April 2008
Hi Kenoath,
Unfortunately I have recieved nothing via email.
I have always liked Dr Who Kahless
Graffiti
Posted by: Graffiti | Tuesday, 22 April 2008
apparently my server iinet is having problems sending emails to bigpond users Grafitti. They are trying to rectify the situation.
kenoath
Posted by: kenoath | Thursday, 24 April 2008
Isn't it time for a new blog post Graffiti. You're getting slack here :-)
Posted by: Madeleine | Thursday, 24 April 2008
Where'd my comment go?? You been deleting me, Graffiti??
Posted by: Madeleine | Thursday, 24 April 2008
There I am. I finally made it. How's everyone going?
Posted by: Madeleine | Thursday, 24 April 2008
Hi Madeleine; I am good thank-you.
I was 40 today. (Actually strictly speaking I still have 2 more hours to go) Though I guess to you it was yesterday.
And I had a flying lesson.
A surprise from my partner.
It was fabulous.
I will blog about it in a day or two! And post pictures!
Kahless.
Posted by: Kahless | Friday, 25 April 2008
Happy Birthday Kahless. How kewl. A flying lesson. Tell Mrs Kahless that she is wonderful. Please do blog about it. How could you take photos while you were flying the plane?? So many questions so few answers.
Posted by: Madeleine | Friday, 25 April 2008
Best wishes to you Kahless,
And may your next 40 be full of good days.
Hip, Hip, Hoooray!!!
Tony
Posted by: Tony | Friday, 25 April 2008
happy birthday Kahless
hugs
kenoath
Posted by: kenoath | Friday, 25 April 2008
Thank-you all for the good wishes.
Madeleine, Mrs K took the photo's from the ground and I took a couple before take-off. Also I did take one in the air (of my house) but the instructor took the controls for that!
xx.
Posted by: Kahless | Friday, 25 April 2008
I'm waiting Kahless !!!
Posted by: Madeleine | Friday, 25 April 2008
Here you are ....!
http://kahlessnoise.blogspot.com/2008/04/fabulous-birthday.html
Posted by: Kahless | Friday, 25 April 2008
Graffiti,
are you ok?
Hugs anyway.
x.
Posted by: Kahless | Saturday, 26 April 2008
So what happened to your last blog post Graffiti???
Posted by: Madeleine | Saturday, 26 April 2008
Ohh my goodness! Happy birthday to you Kahless! Bumma - i missed it. I hope it was a lovely 40th. 40's great, hope it's good for you too.
Tony?
Are you away on a secluded island somewhere with the woman/women of your dreams? Or, did the queen invite you to England to councel her corgies? Or perhaps another time and place portal opened up in cyber space and sucked you into a fantastic dimention where you do nothing but be fed and ly around in the not-too-hot-and-dangerous sun on a white beach with sand as soft as feather down pillow?
You can't be on the loo all this time, surely! You're not THAT ful of it are you? Though it can happen...
Where ever you are, Madeleine noticed that the sneaky blog post muncher's been about again. You've really got to get some kind of protection you know. No, gladwrap won't do.
Happy Sunday... roses
Posted by: roses | Sunday, 27 April 2008
Tony?
I just found out i passed assessment 2.
I cried.
roses
Posted by: roses | Tuesday, 29 April 2008
That is wonderful news Roses.
Congratulations and I knew you could do it!!!
Tony
Posted by: Tony | Tuesday, 29 April 2008
well done roses, you are coming along nicely
kenoath
Posted by: kenoath | Tuesday, 29 April 2008
Congrats Roses
Posted by: kahless | Tuesday, 29 April 2008
Well done, Roses. Was that the one you were so excited about and then went into worrying about it and beating up on yourself??
Posted by: Madeleine | Tuesday, 29 April 2008
Thanks everyone - so sweet.
Madeleine - yep that's the one. Umm, sounds a tad emotionally unstable to me. Oh my goodness - this is so much fun! I don't know what to expect next *giggles*.
But really truely i honestly honestly thought i had failed. I couldn't even see the writing for the first 10 minutes or so. It was just so crazy! But just like my golf swing, it's always best to follow through. I kept changing the answers. Over and over again till it was all tangled up in my brain.
I wonder why? It's so silly really. But i passed so *phew* on to assessment 3 due in this Friday! Yikes!
I love you all so much! So so much!
roses
Posted by: roses | Tuesday, 29 April 2008
Always trust your first answer Roses. It's usually right - and if it's not, your second answer probably isn't either cause you don't know the answer LOL!!!
Posted by: Madeleine | Tuesday, 29 April 2008
I like that Roses,
Mental toughness.
Even with all that going on you still persisted.
Took the risk of failure
Lots of strokes to you
Graffiti
Posted by: Tony | Tuesday, 29 April 2008
Madeleine,
I think you should write a book of cool sayings...
You know, the small pocket size books with a saying per page!
Kahless.
Posted by: Kahless | Wednesday, 30 April 2008
(to the theme song from The Sting)
Follow, Follow, Follow
United are going to Moscow.
Follow, Follow, Follow
Coz, United are going to Moscow.
They'll be thousands of Reds
Pissed out they're heads
Coz, United are going to Moscow
Posted by: Kahless | Wednesday, 30 April 2008
Kahless, you mean sayings like "shit happens". For christmas friends gave me a calendar of insults = one for each day of the year. It's kinda funny.
Posted by: Madeleine | Wednesday, 30 April 2008
Hi Madeleine,
Yes, kind of like that. A little book of wisdom.
I was referring to your earlier comment. I can just picture page 22...
"Always trust your first answer. It's usually right - and if it's not, your second answer probably isn't either cause you don't know the answer."
Posted by: Kahless | Thursday, 01 May 2008
Hey Kahless. Not bad for 8 a.m :-) I must admit I hadn't read it again. Thanks. So what would be the one you would put in the book?
Another favourite of mine is "Shit happens" or "That goes into the shit happens bucket".
And it's only 745 a.m
We could do a blog on it and pick our favourites.
Posted by: Madeleine | Thursday, 01 May 2008
Yeah, that's true Madeleine.
It was kinda like that. I have now finally found my text book and after reading it more - it so clarifys a heap of stuff that was just a big Question mark in my head.
There are still loads of those giant question marks there but getting rid of some of them just made room for more now. Kinda like when you're hard drive's full and you need to empty some of it so you can fill it up again. Not at all like the petrol tank thing though - that's way more expensive - and for some reason that makes it way less pleasurable.
I think Kahless is onto something there Madeleine. I really like those little books of quotes or funny sayings. They are actually thought fodder and disguised common sense or observations. Great idea.
roses
Posted by: roses | Thursday, 01 May 2008
Roses,
Could you send me those photos again of the man who had been swallowed by a snake?
Cheers
Tony
Posted by: Tony | Thursday, 01 May 2008
Tony?
Yup - sent. Enjoy!
Cheers to you - roses
Posted by: roses | Thursday, 01 May 2008
Thanks Roses,
I have a friend who is a vet and we were discussing snakes the other day and I am sure he will be interested in those which I have already sent to him
Tony
Posted by: Tony | Thursday, 01 May 2008
Gosh! I hope they're not 'fixed' type pictures. They look real but then again... lots of them do I suppose.
I hope your Friday is a good one. Its important - roses
Posted by: roses | Thursday, 01 May 2008
That would be cool Madeleine -
why dont you do a blog post on it?
Posted by: Kahless | Friday, 02 May 2008