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Sunday, 29 June 2008
Regression and solutions
Solutions to problems or high stress.
There is an exercise sometimes used in psychotherapy. It begins with a few questions. What was one of the lowest points in your life and what did you think, feel and do? When things had gone really, really bad for you how did you react? What was your way of solving the problem or dealing with these very adverse circumstances?
It is generally acknowledged that the more a person is under stress the more they will revert to their childhood solutions to problems. The more stress a person is put under then the more they will regress, as it is known. This means they move from the Parent and Adult ego state into the Child ego state as is shown in the diagram below
Regression
So when life was going really badly for you what did you think?
One way of defining this is to finish the sentence, “It just goes to show you that....” Finish that sentence and you will know some of what you thought as a young child.
What did you think about yourself, others and life? This will be what you also thought and decided when you were a young child because you are in a regressed state.
This child is at the point of making decisions on how to think, feel and act.
What did you feel? This will be your racket feeling, or your most familiar feeling. If it is sadness then one will tend to be prone to depression and is more likely to conclude that they are wrong and others are right. If it is anger then one will tend to see others as doing wrong to them and that others are not OK. Or such a person can conclude that both others and self are not OK.
Racket feeling is?
What did you do?
Sometimes these are divided into 3 different solutions.
Fight - physically hit out (DV), verbally hit out, fight for your rights, put in a complaint, sue somebody. In childhood the child who will hit something or shouted in their defence or broke something to try and hurt the other person. “I’m going to hurt you” is the childlike fight response.
In adulthood we call this justice which is really just revenge but we don’t usually like to acknowledge that when of course feeling vengeful is a normal human emotion. So when under great stress this person will tend to hit out at others physically or verbally or legally. In childhood the child may voice disapproval at mother and father or seek to angrily get change in some way in the home. If mother and father are fighting the child may actually intervene in some way.
Flight - This can include things like using alcohol, drugs or prescription medication. All these are a way of getting away from the problem, as a way of solving it. Or the person who quits their job and simply goes elsewhere. So one can simply geographically relocate to move away from the problem and thus it is solved in their mind. In childhood the youngster may do running away from home behaviour or the child goes and hides under their bed as a response to stress in the home. This child does not seek to change the conditions at home or express their disapproval instead they move away from the problem and wait for it to subside. They want to ‘slide under the radar’.
Freeze - In the olden days it would be said that the person has had a nervous breakdown. In essence the person collapses in on self and goes into a state or incapacitation. They fall to the ground and go into the foetal position. These days people go on stress leave, or they may seek hospitalisation, some can have panic attacks and agoraphobia which are both incapacitating conditions. In childhood the child just stands there and simply does not know how to respond. In the extreme they can loose bowel or bladder control. Where as fight is primarily an angry response, freeze is mainly an anxiety response.
So as adults regress more and more as the stress increases they will respond more and more in a childlike way. They will think the same as they did as a child and feel the same way as well. They will also be more prone to pick the behavioural solution that they used as a young child as well.
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At a assessing suicide risk workshop I ran last week I did this exercise with the participants and asked them the question, “If a person considers or attempts suicide then what response is that - Fight, flight or freeze?”
I will answer it soon.
Graffiti
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Madeleiine, Kahless and KazzaB make good comments.
Some saw suicide as a flight response which to me makes sense. One solves a problem by getting away from it and suicide does indeed do that. I also think there is a fight response in there. Suicide is a murderous act. It is an aggressive act. The line between suicide and murder is a fine one indeed. Psychologically they are quite similar processes. Both persons are prepared to step over the line of destructive thought and put it into action. That is a big step to take.
Research shows that those on death row have a higher rate of suicidal urges than the general population. So perhaps those are not able or capable of killing self, so they act in a certain way and then that gets the state to do it for them.
Interestingly enough in the early histories of suicidal individuals it is not uncommon to hear of running away from home behaviour which is a flight response. Most often if a child says they are going to run away from home when asked where it is going to run to it has no answer. So in essence it is running away to oblivion.
The overall point of the exercise was to demonstrate that suicide was just one possible solution to a problem just like going on a bender is or beating the wife is. That is the person has made a decision for this to be one of their options to a problem. Such a person is said to have a Don't exist injunction or message. In assessing suicide risk this is the definitive point and one does this by doing one of the four methods of the Don't exist interview.
Graffiti
18:20 Permalink | Comments (32) | Email this
Comments
That's a really interesting post Tony. I'd have to say for me it would be freeze or maybe flight sometimes. I never said much - I was a very quiet child who found it easier to shut up than to say something wrong or be picked on by my brother. When things have gone really badly for me I'm more likely to go into anxiety and go very quiet. And probably end up feeling very sad. I think as a child I actually used to disassociate.
So that means as an adult when I'm faced with something going bad for me, I am likely to freeze and have an anxiety response and usually end up depressed.
Posted by: KazzaB | Sunday, 29 June 2008
I guess suicide could be seen as:
flight - fleeing from the situation. I can't deal with it any longer so I will run away (i.e. kill myself)
fight - I am angry with you, so I will hit out at you and kill myself to make you feel miserable
freeze - I don't know what else to do so I will stop everything - fear, anxiety
I guess it depends on the motive behind the suicide.
Posted by: gezunda | Sunday, 29 June 2008
The more I think about it, it doesn't actually seem to fit properly in any of the categories. it's more a withdrawal from the fray.
Posted by: gezunda | Sunday, 29 June 2008
When I read what you'd written Gezunda I thought it made a lot of sense. I'm not sure about the Freeze one but the other two looked highly likely to me.
Posted by: KazzaB | Sunday, 29 June 2008
I agree with Kazza, this is a great post. I love such thought provoking posts.
Not sure yet my response. Cos my initial thought is my feeling is frustration but that isnt a feeling. Its like I go into my brain and its excreting this painful excruciating toxin and I am going into a complete fog that I brain cant work its way out. My voice doesnt work and I collapse into my own world.
So maybe the feeling is anxiety. My brain not working drives more frustration (at self)
As for my response, my family would say I bury my head in the sand but I reject that. I would tend I reckon to freeze as I withdraw into my own world.
In the business world I tend to fight when my team are threatened as I feel, I guess, I am their parent and I hate it when anyone treats them badly.
Posted by: kahless | Sunday, 29 June 2008
"Research shows that those on death row have a higher rate of suicidal urges than the general population. So perhaps those are not able or capable of killing self, so they act in a certain way and then that gets the state to do it for them."
I dont think it is necessarily a logical conclusion Graffiti. There could be numerous reasons for that.
I was going to say ethnicity of the death row population versus general pop but then I read that whites have higher suicide rates yet death row is proportionally more non-whites.
Otherwise being on death row is a unique stressful position and that in itself could impact.
If you wernt capable of suicide then why not cop-suicide? ie hold a gun at a cop and let them shoot you.
Posted by: kahless | Monday, 30 June 2008
Besides, surely that wouldn't hold true for countries without capital punishment.
I think it is more about the shame?
A like between shame and suicide?
Our recent serial killers of Harold shipman and Fred West killed themselves pretty soon after getting caught.
I find it quite fascinating the different methods some people choose to suicide. What does that say? Like last month when I was stuck in London as the trains were halted because someone had jumped in front of a train. Why did someone go that way rather than poison or overdose or hanging?
Has any research been done into that?
Posted by: kahless | Monday, 30 June 2008
Flight, fight or freeze.
I think of the drama triangle.
Are flight, fright or freeze transistional in some way and interlinked?
Anyway, off to sleep.
Have a good monday everyone.
{{{{hugs}}}} to you all.
Posted by: kahless | Monday, 30 June 2008
There is always a risk that poisoning and overdosing might fail Kahless. Men commiting sucide over here prefer using a gun because that is final and the job gets done proper.
One must have some reasurances that the job will be done, perhaps a train is that guarantee, the London Express may be the ticket for some.
Then again some take the slow boat to china and drink themselves to death over quite some time.
kenoath
Posted by: kenoath | Monday, 30 June 2008
Yeah Ken, i see that too.
Kahless, perhaps it was the moment of control. He finally stepped off the same ole same ole platform and tried to tackle the fast moving train head on. That one moment where he could control what happened right then and there.
Or perhaps he was on the fast moving train and just at that moment felt the power to free himself from the burden of what life on such a ride has dealt him and just - in a moment of the decision - finally stepped off the train. Finally stopped.
Fully makes sense to me. It's amazing what will happen when one grasps the concept of the power we actually have and finally take a chance in using it.
Perhaps it's one thing to knowing something and a whole other thing believing it?
Ohh Tony!
It was wonderful - Phantom of the Opera!
Ohh my goodness - I cried and cried. The story was so sad! Cruel!
I didn't want it to end - but 3 hours later we were on our way back to the motel and that was that. I stayed up till 3 - 4 am talking to my sister (the one that's doing a counceling course) but we didn't talk about councelling just, lots of other stuff.
We went to a dinner party one night - a work thing - and we were talking to another couple and the mayor walked up to join the convo. I asked him if being mayor was fun. He answered 95%.
That's pretty fun isn't it - 95% fun? Sounds like a lot of fun to me.
How fun is being a psychologist/counsellor?
roses
Ps, I think you would have loved the play. I hope when it gets to Perth you'll go and see it. Gosh! So lovely!!
Posted by: roses | Monday, 30 June 2008
Kahless, I'm so sorry about that bazzar comment. I thought you'd mentioned somewhere about a man and a train. So strange. Hope you're having some lovely dreams
OHH AND...
I loved that comment about dreams and ego states! I just don't remember my dreams much at all. Last time i said that i remembered one or 2 - wouldn't it be nice if it worked again!
Sleep well mate.
Posted by: roses | Monday, 30 June 2008
I felt like i couldn't do it and that i was silly to attempt it and that if i never attempt it i'll never really know whether i can do it or not but in doing it, i'd find out if i could or not and if i couldn't then... i don't know what then.
It was my last exam. It was amazingly exciting but i still don't know if i can do it or not. I came here and chatted but all along I felt totally alone. It's true you know, no matter who or how many people we're with, sometimes its wonderful to feel alone but then again sometimes being alone in a crowded world can be so lonely.
We're all alone really. No one can really live my life with me. Every one lives their own lives - alone. My hubby can't sleep when i'm not there in bed with him. When i asked why... he said he has always been frightened of dying alone. But we all die alone whether someones next to us or not. Don't you think?
Posted by: roses | Monday, 30 June 2008
I kind of dissagree with your concept that when under great stress people will Flight Fight or Freeze. I think there are more responses than just those. What about about Negotiating? What about breaking the problem down into smaller parts and responding with all of the F's accordingly. I think children do these things very well. They cope with stress better than us because they don't accept the problems in such a finite way as we adults do. Is it possible that in our child state we would be more equipped to deal with stress than in our Adult/Parent?
This may just be me not understanding the Psychology world, but when faced with Fight Flight or Freeze my reaction is usually to stall until a better choice comes about. Negotiating for more options etc.
Just a thought anyways.
Posted by: Nadia | Monday, 30 June 2008
Hi Ken,
Thanks for your response. I didn't think of it that way. I guess I thought
What if you only caught half your brain and ended up a dependant vegetable instead?
Or the train just slices your legs off but you live. At least if you fail with an overdose chances are you will be well enough at the end to give it another go!!!!
A failed dramatic suicide can leave you worse off. And I think it is damn incosiderate to expect someone else to clear up your blood and guts!
Hope your monday is good.
Posted by: kahless | Monday, 30 June 2008
I think you make a good point about death row kahless,
People who end up there have very tragic life scripts and one could sort of expect them to be self destructive.
You state
" between shame and suicide?"
I would think that is probably so when people are charged with something like child sexual abuse as they do have a tendency to suicide.
But I would also tend to keep feelings and decisions separate. Some people choose the option for a suicide in childhood. That would generally be regardless of the racket feelings they have.
tony
Posted by: Tony | Monday, 30 June 2008
I like that solution of yours Nadia - stall until a better choice comes about.
I find the flight, fight or freeze explanation reasonably good but in reality grouping the worlds population into 3 groups is bound to run into trouble sooner or later.
Perhaps the more important point is that when people are put under stress they will tend to return to the solution that they chose in childhood. If that was to stall then that is what will come about when stressed out in aduldhood.
Others are really good to have around in a crisis and one could assume that their Child ego state response was to shut off all feeling and go into thinking and problem solving. These people tend to have trouble later because they never let themselves have the normal feelings later on about the crisis that fronted them.
Cheers
Tony
Posted by: Tony | Monday, 30 June 2008
I can understand Kahless why someone might wish to only half kill themselves and end up a vegetable instead. Perhaps there is a part of them that doesn't wish to die. Guns and trains and leaps off buildings usually does the job. I guess one can be unlucky?
Taking pills is notoriously a female method of suicide which also can have dire health consequences if the person wakes up after their stomach is pumped out. I knew of a couple of guys in Adelaide once. They both decided to kill themselves. Each one shot up five grams of heroin and 5 grams of cocaine. They hit the floor pretty quickly with blood coming from their ears and eyes. One died and one did not. I have no idea if the surviving one was a vegetable afterwards but one could assume they had done irreversible damage to their organs.
Tony, the other day a colleague was talking about someone she knew "doing euthenasia". I thought that was interesting that she was reframing the act of sucide. I do however understand why some people with health conditions just want to "give up". It may the person wants to get away from the problem, however to them it is also a logical solution to go forward in the light of whatever it is taking to keep them alive. It must take a great deal of courage to "euthenate", it must be a fearful decision to make. To give up!
kenoath
Posted by: kenoath | Monday, 30 June 2008
Hey Kenoath
It's interesting to ponder on the difference between euthanasia and suicide. Technically they are the same. However, I do not feel I would commit suicide, but can see myself and euthansiaing (whatever the word is) myself if physically things got too painful or hard.
I would also never murder someone, however if someone wanted to die (euthanasia), I would certainly contemplate helping them. And that is still technically murder.
I guess I'm just pondering the emotional difference between the two terms.
Posted by: gezunda | Monday, 30 June 2008
Hey Madeleine, you might make axe murderer yet! It is interesting though, with what you say the difference in meanings depends on which position one is viewing the situation. euthanasia from the helping the person's perspective, greatfulness from the dead person, murder from the policemans perspective. What the hell is it then? Maybe the psychologists are stumped too? Nah. It is a bit like quantum mechanics; appears different every time you look at it.
kenoath
Posted by: kenoath | Monday, 30 June 2008
Maybe I really am an axe murderer and don't even know it :-). I guess it is all in your perspective.
Posted by: gezunda | Monday, 30 June 2008
I could certainly, based on my personal experience, see it as either a fight or flight one. I have certainly felt it as an anger urge and a fear one.
Posted by: myalterego | Monday, 30 June 2008
Hi Madeleine and Kenoath,
M - so are you saying it is ok to eleviate physical pain with euthanasia but not emotional pain with suicide?
Posted by: kahless | Monday, 30 June 2008
Tony,
I like the idea of keeping feelings and decision seperate.
:-)
However if this is about assessing suicide risk then surely shame is an influencing factor. And in childhood kids can learn shame even though they have nothing to be ashamed of.
I guess you are saying, if I hear correctly, that the single biggest indicator is script? And therefore that is what you should base risk assessment on primarily?
Posted by: kahless | Monday, 30 June 2008
I wasn't intentionally Kahless. But reading back that's how it could sound. I'm not really sure what I'm saying and probably need to clarify it a bit more in my own brain. And right now it's too early in the a.m.
Posted by: gezunda | Tuesday, 01 July 2008
That really does bring up an interesting point, whether or not emotional pain is not as bad as physical pain. I think there is a lot more sympathy for people who kill themselves because of physical pain, than there is for someone who does it because of emotional pain. I've been depressed to the point of contemplating suicide numerous times and I also have chronic pain. If I commited suicide because of the chronic pain, would that be accepted more than because of the emotional pain? That's really got me thinking.
Posted by: KazzaB | Tuesday, 01 July 2008
I think you will find that someone in a great deal of physical pain will also experience the emotioanal pain to a high degree. In that case its not one or the other however perhaps both. It doesn't worry me Kahless why someone would kill themself, whatever their reason, emotional, physical, financial, spritual pain etc, I am sure their reasons are just as valid.
The terminally ill person, or chronically ill person will have more sympathy for killing themself, its not really a value judgement call betweeen the two "pains" in my mind.
k
Posted by: kenoath | Tuesday, 01 July 2008
I agree Ken.
Posted by: roses | Tuesday, 01 July 2008
What if, being in pain we choose to die where as emotional pain - which is a symptom of some sort of physical change? (i have no idea if this is what it is???) where because our tolerance of the pain has been exausted and we want it to end. But the emotional damage pain (physical or emotional or 'other') does the chemical thing in us and we become different people. Kind of like what our planet is doing.
She's feeling sick and this virus is killing off her defenses so she's begun the 'shut down' process because she needs to stop for a time so that she can regenerate. People don't like that idea. We'd rather keep her sick so we feel safer in a toxic half life type environment - so strange.
I hurt my back - ohh quite a while back now - and i have no idea how people cope with chronic pain the way they do... daily! I was angry, frustrated, frightened, ashamed, sad, annoyed, but i was so happy that i didn't have to do anything (i could have if i wanted to but i didn't 'have' to) and it was nice having an excuse to lie around all day watching movies and reading (well i had to do some things - it was a pulled muscle not a chronic thing) and i got some really nice attention plus lots of peace (most precious!).
But people in chronic pain that never get a rest from the torment... well, they're amazing! Wonderful humans!
I want whats best for them.
I've heard that people are in emotional pain all the time too. I can't tell the difference between either emotional pain or physical pain. Most of the time you can't see the source of physical pain or emotional pain. It would be the same wouldn't it?
Ohh i see.
So you're saying Tony, that we all live with pain one way or another but the 'thing' is that there are several different ways we individually deal with the pain we each have? So you're doing statistics again? Just not saying that it's statistics?
Ohh... ok. I don't love statistics. We have that stuff happening next semester. I don't love the way statistics discount so much - but aparently Mr Skinner et al... rather like them. *shrugs*
It's blowing a gale here. Warm though. Hope is being nice there too. Cheers...
Posted by: roses | Tuesday, 01 July 2008
I would agree with you KazzaB,
that there is more sympathy for someone who takes thier own life due to chronic physical pain rather than chronic emotional pain.
However perhaps that extends to other areas as well. A person who finds life a bit difficult due to their diabetes is viewed in a better light than one who finds life difficult due to their depression.
Tony
Posted by: Tony | Tuesday, 01 July 2008
Maybe that is why I didn't understand the context of your comment Roses. Your comment was referring to a post Tony mage some weeks ago which is now been archived and you have placed your comment in a recent thread.
You almost made it hard for me to understand where you were coming from Roses.
k
Posted by: kenoath | Wednesday, 02 July 2008
I hope that when ever i am ambiguous Ken, you will help me be more clear. I am angry at you (or is it at me?), but i do appreciate what you've done.
It seems that we address an issue or what have you here, and quite afew posts later something of a similar nature pops up from nowhere. It's a pretty nice way to learn.
r
Posted by: roses | Wednesday, 02 July 2008
On with the good blogging Roses.
best
kenoath
Posted by: kenoath | Wednesday, 02 July 2008
The comments are closed.