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Sunday, 20 July 2008
Social engineering
I always find this a very interesting topic. The ways and means people will use to get others in a society to behave a certain way. It can be as simple as the speed limit for driving a car, you get them to behave by taking their money away. I recall in Singapore many years ago they had a law where if a university educated man married and had a child to a university educated female then he got taxation benefits that non-university educated parents did not.
Haven’t governments tried that throughout history - apartheid and the aryan race just to name two - and fortunately it has never been successful. Imagine what we would be like now if governments could actually be successful in engineering who mated with who in a society.
I heard a most interesting talk on the radio the other day about China’s one child policy. The man stated that it is now estimated that there are 50 million children in China who are a second child. Yes, there are 50 million people in China who have no birth certificate, who can never get a passport and who officially do not exist. Imagine the impact of that. Firstly they will be ripe for exploitation - unless you do what I want then I will dob you in - and they are going to have to have a massive black economy to support them all as someone who does not exist can’t pay taxation. It seems that governments cannot engineer the human sex drive but I suppose that wont stop them trying.
Anyway closer to home they are bringing in a new law in the state where I live. They want to reduce teenage truancy which is closely related to crime in the community. Another piece of social engineering who’s goals are most meritorious in my view. How they plan to do it is by withholding welfare payments from parents who’s teenagers do not attend school. Well fancy that!
Now there is some good engineering!!
Firstly, its discriminatory in that it only effects poor parents and not the ones who have a job. And I can tell you that there are plenty of rich kids who are truants. I see them regularly in my work. A mother will bring her 14 year old highly rebellious daughter to see me, to get her repaired. This child’s sole goal in life is to defy authority and of course that includes not going to school. Indeed just getting the child inside the door of my office is a major logistical exercise as in the teenager’s eyes I am authority even before we have ever met. Often I ask the mother how she managed it and sometimes you get an answer like she paid her daughter $20 to get her to come to counselling!! Yes that is right. The parent pays the counsellor to counsel the child and pays the child to be a client!!
I tell you what, you earn your money when you counsel such very rebellious teenagers. They are not easy clients. It truly tests the counsellors skills. If you can just somehow manage to weave your way through all the rebellion and get underneath it and make some real contact with the child then you have made it and some good changes can occur. Sometimes you get there and sometimes you don’t.
Unfortunately this welfare withholding piece of social engineering is based on a faulty assumption. This is no better articulated than in the editorial of the “West Australian” newspaper where in discussing this program the editor states, “The aim is surely unobjectionable: to get children from such families to attend school regularly. Education is the means by which such children are given the opportunity to break the pattern of welfare dependency”
And the faulty assumption is? School = education. You can make a child go to school but you can’t make it learn. You can make a child sit in a classroom but you can’t make it get educated. Oh well!!
He looks rebellious. Apparently if he is made to go to school that means he will learn. According to the Australian government one causes the other to happen.
Furthermore who would want to be a teacher now! They are going to watch their classrooms start to fill up with children who don’t want to be there, who don’t want to learn and who angry about it all. You don’t need three guesses to work out who is going to take the brunt of that anger.
Then there are the other children in the classroom who do want to learn and they are going to be adversely effected because the teacher is spending all the time coping with the welfare driven disruptive student.
And finally there is one other point. People are usually attracted to those things which they are good at. They will naturally seek them out like skills in art, or music or sport and yes academic ability as well. The vast majority of truants aren’t good at it. They are academically challenged or they are dumb as they have been called numerous times before and as they call themselves. Putting such children back in the classroom will only further reinforce their “dumbness” to themselves and their self image is further crushed into the ground. And that is one common feature in many social experiments. The people effected, end up worse off than before the social engineering was implemented in the first place.
He is good at taking baths so he will naturally do it of his own volition.
I am all in favour of getting truants to do some structured activity. A very good idea for sure. Putting them back in the classroom is a very bad idea.
Graffiti
12:20 Permalink | Comments (48) | Email this
Comments
Didn't you know, Tony, that the only "good" education is academic? And of course, you have to keep focussing on the negatives of "these children" and their parents. Bring the rules in tighter and tighter so people know who's the boss i.e. teachers, government.
So much for my sarcasm. One of this things I've never understood is the idea that if a consequence doesn't work, that you try something different. Governments work on the idea that if fining people for breaking the rules doesn't work, we will fine them more, take away their pensions, whatever.
When will they get the idea that this simply does not work. No one has ever tried using positive strokes to encourage people to do the "right" thing. Pay parents more every time their child attends school, give the schools more options about what they can teach to encourage the "truants" to attend, give people discounts on their rego for "good" driving, that sort of thing.
And also accept the fact that amongst human beings, there will always be the rule breakers. Rule breakers can often be a positive in society if their RC is challenged appropriately.
I'm on my soap box again this pm.
Off to see Kung Fu Panda shortly.
Posted by: gezunda | Sunday, 20 July 2008
Good comments about teenagers and education Tony. Unfortunately some education psychs and agencies do think that their systems are infallible and successful for all.
The options for male teenagers who leave school for whatever reasons, is for them to attend programs to enter the workforce via apprenticeships such as bricklaying and spray painting etc. These programs are run by various agencies and connected to the education dept and govt.
Teenagers are happy to leave school for more independance however later realize that bricklaying is not for them. They can't really go back to school (what for? they hated that) so that leaves their counselling work at an impasse too. If the counsellor tries harder or highlights the impasse to achieve some movement there is a good possibility that the teenager leaves that too.
In the end, it seems they would be happy to stay in bed, do some tagging or surfing and wallow happily in their rebelliosness. Some teengers take a little more time to come around, others are quite depressed. When all else seems to fail with parents there is always living on the streets. There are quite a few sleeping in the city these days.
kenoath
Posted by: kenoath | Sunday, 20 July 2008
So what's the answer. The money factor will always cut any worth while ideas off at the legs and without the provision of wheel chairs, legless ideas will never run well - the chairs cost too much.
The government have no idea how to deal with this kind of thing - of cause not! Their job is governing the country. The police and other authorative groups have their hands tied - including the school/education system because of the litigation movement that is storming the (financially) developed world. None of the above are supposed to be parenting - they simply are not equiped to do so. Pollies, authoritative personel (police etc.) and teachers are them selves dealing with the delema. Parents are lost because the government, policing and education systems have been empowered to be the parents of our nations youth by our societal immaturity/pass the buck-ed-ness.
It just kind of goes around and around.
The kids aren't the problem but either is the government. It's lunacy to expect something that can not possibly be equiped to raise our future generations to do so. Our society is obviously unable to reason and reasonably empower each institution to take back the tasks that each are able to do and so we desplay the symptom - the delemma.
Money is a big player in the whole thing but saying that is like accusing aeroplanes for the 911 blow on our society.
(Ok, here come the therapists our knights in shining armor.) I wonder where the voice is? That voice that might encourage/enable populations to sit back and reason - learn to study our "mindsets"? The 'why' of everything is actually so much more a productive treasure to hunt than the - who done it/witch hunt/blame them - type thing.
Do you know the answer Tony? Do you know someone who does? We're not sick - society isn't sick - not really, we've just forgotten some stuff. Or is it... remembered some stuff too? Or do we call it - transitioning...
roses
Posted by: roses | Sunday, 20 July 2008
Another thing that bites! Self financed pensioners who complain constantly about their right to beable to get the pension as well. I know there's the whole thing where elderly people have all their cash wrapped up in land and un-spendable stuff like that. There are a million reasons for it. But on the other hand there are the people on the pension who are dying of cold, starving to death etc.
What the...!!
The government is not our parent! They are a cold calculating machine! They're designed to run a country not breast feed the population!
I'm a tad passionate about this stuff Tony... not too obvious is it?
A shutting up now - roses
Posted by: roses | Sunday, 20 July 2008
Ohh Tony. We have ego state contamination happening right now in our society. That's all it is. Everything has it's purpose - if only we could somehow find a way around the contamination. Everyone's doing everyone else's job. So nothing is clear or obvious...
I'm going to bed. Gosh i'm so glad i don't remember my dreams cause this one's going to be the gist of my dreams for a long time i feel.
Posted by: roses | Sunday, 20 July 2008
Gezunda,
I don't want my taxes being given to parents to encourage them to get their kids in school.
I like the idea of other activities instead. Though I guess they won't go their either.
Posted by: kahless | Sunday, 20 July 2008
I take your point Kahless, however, it might not be money. I guess the point I'm making is that positive reinforcement is more likely to work than negative.
Kids work better if there is something in it for them rather than just doing as they are told or because it's what they are supposed to do.
If you made the activities something they were interested in, then you could get the kids interested. For instance, using music you can explain all sorts of other concepts, numbers, language, social concepts etc. why does all "good" learning have to come from text books and people yabbering at you from the front of a class room.
Lectures at Uni were incredibly boring. Tutorials a bit better cause you were allowed to say something and put some of your ideas across.
Posted by: gezunda | Sunday, 20 July 2008
Ohh Gez, i could listen to some lectures for ever! But i actively listen (well, my mind actively listens) and so I miss a lot. I'd tape them or get a copy of the lecture and go over and over it. My imagination goes crazy during a lecture. They are able to stimulate (open imagination doors) so well! I love it!
Posted by: roses | Sunday, 20 July 2008
But not everyone is like me - it's true
Posted by: roses | Sunday, 20 July 2008
I find learning by listening to someone jabber at me for an hour, without being able to ask questions, clarify points incredibly boring. I prefer interactive learning.
Posted by: gezunda | Sunday, 20 July 2008
Well the answer Roses is nothing amazing,
There is no special therapy or thing we are not doing now. With errant teenagers if you can get through the rebellion and establish good relational contact then their 'bad' ways will subside.
If they can form an ongoing relationship or attachment with an adult who they can begin to trust and develop a good transference with then they will be happier and engage in less anti-social acts . Their basic attachment needs are met and when that happens to anyone they are much more psychologically robust.
So it does not matter what you do with them really. You can do outreach work and engage them at shopping centres or take a bunch of them and cross the Gibson desert on camels. If good relational contact is established then the problems will subside.
The difficulty is that establishing and maintaining good relational contact takes time and it must be maintained over an extended period of time. Yes you guessed it, the community, you and I, are not prepared to spend the large sums of money that that would cost.
Its not the politicians fault, most of them are OK people and they don’t want some of our youth to be in psychological pain. They also know that if they spent the money then you and I would vote them out, so its our fault it does not happen. And thus we the voters tell our politicians to think up simplistic, quick fix solutions, and so they do. And this then reduces our feelings of guilt.
But, such is life. It is never going to happen in any serious way. So what I ask is that we be honest and open with ourselves about that. We acknowledge that we have decided that there is an acceptable number of casualties amongst our youth. That is certainly what our behaviour is saying, even though our words often don’t say that.
Graffiti
Posted by: Tony | Sunday, 20 July 2008
So what is the current law on teenage truancy in Australia? In the US, kids and their parents have to go to court if the child has been truant, and often the kid ends up having to do community servie. Parents also can face legal consequences.
Posted by: citizen of the world | Sunday, 20 July 2008
I think it is about teaching parents to spend quality time with their kids. In that way they are creating and maintaining the good relational contact and dont need to rely on mass therapy.
I wonder, who really listens to these kids in their everyday lives?
If their FC needs were being met would they need so much Rebellion?
But rarely do people question the parenting. that is taboo it seems.
Posted by: kahless | Sunday, 20 July 2008
really doesn't depend on the reason for truancy? truancy because school doesn't "work" for you is different than truancy because you have a really f-ed up home life and you decide to start slinging drugs instead of sitting in a desk. i mean, i think your idea of putting kids who don't fit into the school mold into a different program---there should be more support for programs that will educate/train someone in something useful.
Posted by: April | Sunday, 20 July 2008
Hi Citizen,
My understanding is if the parents do very little to get the child to school then ultimately they can be fined. Of course if the parents are on welfare then they are difficult to fine.
Fining is the last resort and lots of other methods of resolution are usually tried first.
thanks for your comment
tony
Posted by: Tony | Monday, 21 July 2008
Hi Kahless,
I think it is a great idea to "get" to the kids via their parents, but I would see that as the same situation in that to do that you would need very large social programs over an extended period of time. Again we are not prepared to spend the money on such things.
Cheers
Tony
Posted by: Tony | Monday, 21 July 2008
I watched something on one of the Current Affairs programs not long ago and it was on a teenage boy who wants to leave school at 14. He hates school, is truanting all the time and is heading towards getting into trouble. His Dad has a business which the boy is happy to work in but the powers that be reckon he shouldn't be leaving school. Why not? If he hates school, won't go but will work for his Dad, why not let him. It's just an example of not looking out of the square but trying to fit this kid into something he won't do and that's go to school.
So what will happen to this kid? If they force him to go to school he will end up in the criminal justice system and then they'll have more to whinge about because it's another kid gone wrong. Whereas the option is there now to let him learn a trade and make something of himself.
The parents are just battling through red tape to try and help their child and it must be so frustrating.
Kazza
Posted by: KazzaB | Monday, 21 July 2008
Society can be a bit like a bird net can't it? Some can somehow fly around the net and never get caught. Others can navigate their way in and out of the net with seeming ease. But there are others who get caught up in it. Some of the caught ones don't panic quite as much and (with some help sometimes) are easily freed. Those who panic and struggle are the ones that end up so enmeshed that it seems like an impossible task to unravel.
You're calm voice makes sense - to unravel one caught bird at a time and hope to free as many as we possibly can. They aren't the youth. They are simply young people.
It's hard to always have to remember that we will alway lose some. That's the hard truth isn't it? *sigh*
Posted by: roses | Monday, 21 July 2008
So what's happening to our young people is rebellion? Is it a rebellion against conforming to societal norms? ie. 'being well behaved' or 'growing up'?
So that means that they're fighting against what they think their parents are telling them that they 'have' to do? Well yeah, i get that. The parents (authority of pretty much any kind) are having a bit of a problem because not everyone fits neatly into the boxes we want them to happily sit in. Mind you, most of these young people have had to get a new wardrobe weekly because they've been growing out of everything for the last few years so they don't feel like they fit into anything very well any way.
I keep thinking of the butterfly. If we help a butterfly escape from a pupa it won't live very long. It has to endure the huge life threatening battle to survive the rest of it's life. (national geographic)
But it does make sense... somehow.
The other night, our big dog (the ex stray) was spooked by a thunder and lightening storm. He freaked out a tad and jumped the fence.
Yes, he stays inside the yard because he wants to... not because he has to.
So we let him in to sleep in the garage, and the next night there were fire works and so he jumped the fence and slept in the garage again. Then the other night he jumped the fence and expected to get to sleep in the garage again.
Oops.
Instead we put a big door up against the fence. He could jump out anywhere else at anytime he likes, but last night he just went to bed and didn't attempt to get into the garage again. If he had kept it up though, we would have started tying him up at night. It's not because we want to be mean but because we want him to be OK, and we want our neighbour hood to be OK too - keep him off the roads as to cause less accidents etc.
That way also - if anything happened (sheep being killed, bins turned over) he had an alabi - he was tied up at home.
I don't know - it's a toughy that's for sure.
Posted by: roses | Monday, 21 July 2008
Ok.
I was just talking to my daughter in law (age 20, mostly home schooled) and in her eyes the truanting thing is (fines and gaol terms) is a tool that can offer parents a bit of a jolt so that they (parents that are generally too busy) acknowledge that they have a responsibility toward raising their child which should include some form of education. All that's really necessary for those parents is, if they've been alerted of truancy is to call the school a couple of times a day.
Really, that's all that needs to be done. Even if you get your secretary to do it. It may not solve the problem but at least there is some kind of recognition from the parent to the child.
Also, I don't know if there's a lot legally that can be forced on a family that is dealing with a truanting problem who are financially disadvantaged or are doing all they can do to offer the opportunity of an education to their offspring.
Furthermore, there are a whole lot of other things like... the child having a disability which cancels out the 'school' thing because they are just not able to cope. Bullying is another system black hole.
As for the teens not wanting to go to school? What makes us think that they'll go to any training or work place anyway. Youth pay rates are low and with very little incentives (perhaps owing to a limited education?) motorvation is difficult for many.
However, there are the some, the ones who do fall through the many and varied cracks with in the system, who do suffer greatly in the hands of the cold hard polictical machine who is expected to raise our kids.
Is it true that they've raised or are thinking of raising the school leaving age to 16-17? Hmm...
Suggestion? Perhaps, for politicians and many others who work within the governing machine - that it be manditory for each to receive spacificly designed counselling or face charges with the possibility of being prosecuted up to $10,000.00 fines (every time they violate) and approx 2 years inprisonment if they truant the manditory therapy too much.
We could even deem that the manditory therapy continue for approx 2 years after they have left the position.
Can't see that happening some how...
Posted by: roses | Tuesday, 22 July 2008
Mandatory therapy? Sounds like what trainee Gestalt therapists must go through. It is much easier to do therapy when there is a goal at the end it.
Vee vill all do therarpy now, actung and getz down into yorz feelingz, yar! Yorz types of behaviourz are forbodden here!
(sorry to any german readers, Germany has produced some of the best therapists over the years and my accent about mandatory therapy is in good humour)
kenoath
Posted by: kenoath | Tuesday, 22 July 2008
That is a good on kenoath,
Mandatory therapy and zero tolerance of scripts. The poiliticans and press can sprout those ones out at random
"I know nuffing!"
"I know nuffing"
You raise a good point Roses about mandatory therapy. The coerced client is an interesting dynamic
graffiti
Posted by: Graffiti | Tuesday, 22 July 2008
Not a lot different to the coerced schooled huh? It's so obvious the sillyness of demanding that people attend school yet they themselves know (or should be getting somekind of a clue by now) that it takes a little more to get a huge slice of the countries population to WANT to do something they've been ordered to do.
By the way, if i didn't want to do something, how do i get myself to do it and enjoy doing it? I can make my self do it but there's not a lot of satisfaction in that. Do i trick my self or something? Or do i just never get to the 'enjoyment' part?
Posted by: roses | Wednesday, 23 July 2008
Roses,
If you get an unwilling client you simply do motivational interviewing and that gets them motivated to change.
Hey presto!
Tony
Posted by: Tony | Wednesday, 23 July 2008
No Tony, it isn't that easy.
roses
Posted by: roses | Wednesday, 23 July 2008
Yes it is Roses,
Easy as pie
Tony
Posted by: Tony | Wednesday, 23 July 2008
No Tony. If it were that easy it would be easier than it is - but it isn't easy.
What kind of pie?
roses
Posted by: roses | Wednesday, 23 July 2008
Roses,
Maybe not easy as pie, but at least easypeasy.
Motivational interviewing is quite an easy therapeutic process to do with a client
Cheers
tony
Posted by: Tony | Wednesday, 23 July 2008
Did someone mention peas? Motivational interview is easy for a therapist who eats their peas Roses.
kenoath
Posted by: kenoath | Wednesday, 23 July 2008
Then it seems motivational interview will cure the worlds ills?
Posted by: kahless | Thursday, 24 July 2008
As long as therapists eat their peas, s/he can get me to do what i don't want to do to get to where i want to go or be?
But honestly Tony, motivational interview... is that just someone sitting there telling us that 'we can do it'? Cause that only works very short term if it works at all. And, generally the interview (i think) would have to never end and if that were the case - wouldn't it get boring?
Not easy as pie or peas i'm afraid.
Posted by: roses | Thursday, 24 July 2008
AND, when it gets too hard or boring, we just shift to something else. Priorities can be very fickle no matter how important they are.
roses
Posted by: roses | Thursday, 24 July 2008
Graffiti,
please can you explain motivational interview...
Roses, therapists never seem to 'tell' move like question the bugger out of us lol!
Posted by: kahless | Thursday, 24 July 2008
Roses,
go on you are studying psych...
why dont you go and see a counsellor and then you can see what its all like in action...
get then to motivationally interview you..
Posted by: kahless | Thursday, 24 July 2008
G'morning Kahless,
I'm not easily motivated against my will i'm afraid. Too darned independant/stubborn/rebellious i guess. Doing that for me would be like flushing cash down the loo - especially if i didn't know the person. Like i'd even turn up! *giggles*
There will come a time when i will need to confront all that stuff but i'll just stick with the education of it all for now.
Is it late (more to the point 'early') where you are?
Posted by: roses | Thursday, 24 July 2008
Its 1.22am here.
Whats education without practical application?
And its not about against your will...
its finding what your will is...?
Posted by: kahless | Thursday, 24 July 2008
Roses,
Its morning here but not where Kahless is.
And good morning to you to.
I have a big days work today.
She's chockers as they say!
So I'll write a small bit on motivational interviewing tonite. Quite an interesting topic
Graffiti
Posted by: Tony | Thursday, 24 July 2008
Well there you go it is the morning in Kahless town!!
Posted by: Tony | Thursday, 24 July 2008
Hey Graffiti,
last time I looked 1.22am was morning.
hehehe!
Posted by: kahless | Thursday, 24 July 2008
You snook a comment in there before mine!
Yes Kahless town is a rockin'
Posted by: kahless | Thursday, 24 July 2008
Well Tony, when i learn to motivational interview people, i'll come here and motivate you for your chockers day. Aww, if your day is full, please don't waste your time on a post. Just have a rest or go for a walk or something.
Ohh, I'd like to see something on it though - just not after a big day that's all. AND, i think most things are interesting topics.
Make each minute count Mr Graffiti Sir.
Posted by: roses | Thursday, 24 July 2008
Eww Kahless!
Your town rocks? Do you get sea sick - i do! Have to take sea sick tablets before we go out to sea - if that ever happens!
Have a rocky fun morning then!
Posted by: roses | Thursday, 24 July 2008
I dont like boats Roses; i do get sea sick.
Posted by: kahless | Thursday, 24 July 2008
Well ours is a little tinny, so it - So Totally Rocks! Hmm, not always a pleasent sensation really.
I'm kind of studying and surfing. Happy gardening by the way. It looks great before you worked in it, it'll look fantastic after all this work! 11 hours is a tad... long, but if it's the goal then - Go Kahless! Rah! Rah! Rah!
Posted by: roses | Thursday, 24 July 2008
Aww now that's a lovely picture Tony! What a friendly looking fellow!
At some impossible hour of tomorrow morning we'll be leaving for a couple of weeks holiday up north some where. Not quite Queensland but pretty far away from here. I hope you have a really fun coupl-a weeks and keep warm somehow.
Be good, and if you can't be good then... *shrugs*...oh well, you might as well enjoy it.
Roses
Posted by: roses | Thursday, 24 July 2008
I quite agree with Roses, Tony. Of course, there is a special place in my heart for the handsome young man who has occupied that space previously, but this dear fellow is also rather dashing. I think he's a keeper. Unless, of course, you wish to bring back the rogue sunglasses.
:-)
Speaking of sunglasses... I have a pic of me in my mirrored ones that I might post. Hmmm... don't know. Do I like the metaphor of the mirror? I'm not sure it suits. Perhaps not. I think I need to go shopping. Need more glasses. I know! Aviator glasses! But then pretty soon the glasses collection will rival the shoes, then where will I be? Sorting and tossing and feeling out of sorts and... blabbering on and on about it. THAT'S where I'll be. Maybe I need not shop.
:-)
Posted by: Lynn | Thursday, 24 July 2008
Hi Lynn,
Well thank you for the 'dashing' comment and I might even return to the mirror sunglasses at a later time.
Yes it will be necessary for you to put your sunglassed pic on your blog!
Cheers
Tony
Posted by: Tony | Friday, 25 July 2008
Yes Roses I suppose the picture of me does portray my friendly demeanor which some say I have.
I suppose you are out of internet contact for the next week or so. Have a good holiday
Tony
Posted by: Tony | Friday, 25 July 2008