Friday, 20 March 2009
Catharsis and epiphany
Good point Roses about catharsis and epiphany. You state:
“A catharsis is when you realise something you hadn't realised before? Something new has popped into your head - it was probably always there but that particular time, it became an epiphany of sorts?” (end quote)
I would see them as two different but related things Roses.
Catharsis is generally seen as some kind of release often including an emotional release. With such a release people often end up feeling better and being in better psychological shape afterwards. Especially if the 'thing' being held onto has been for some time and has been troubling to the person.

In this way psychotherapy is often seen as cathartic because it involves people talking out and 'feeling' out what ever is inside them at the time. Indeed this is why the catholic confessional is sometimes seen as one of the very first psychotherapies. A place were people could go and unload the troubled thoughts and feelings inside them - thus have a cathartic experience.
Personally I think catharsis is most important therapeutically and at times I see therapists getting lost in their therapy techniques and theories. They start spending too much time and effort in getting clients to do and say things that their theories require them to do. Thus they forget about the basics like cathartic release.

Of course there can be a down side to catharsis. People can go on catharting (try and say that word when you have had a few beers!) for ever. For instance a woman can come to counselling and complain about her husband and express feelings like sadness and anger about him doing or not doing what she wants. Thus she can use the counselling to have cathartic release about her marital woes.
However this can go on for ever. After the release she can feel better, go home and return the next week with the same woes and then do the same and get the same release. The problem is she never does anything about her marital situation and in this way the counselling then becomes part of the problem. It can provide her with just enough release so she can tolerate her dismal marriage instead of finally getting totally fed up with it and actually doing something about it. The catharsis becomes part of the problem.
There would be debate on this point however. Some therapists would confront her about just expressing feelings about her lay about husband and not actually taking any action. Other therapists would not see anything wrong with it and say things like, “She just needs more time and she will do something when she feels ready and able”.

Tree hugger catharsis
The other potential problem with catharsis is that it is meant to be a means to an end but it can become an end in itself. Cathartic release is stimulating and can be quite pleasurable for some in that way. So some can simply seek opportunities for catharsis because they like how it feels. It has no psychotherapeutic use in this sense.
If someone is going to psychotherapy and doing catharsis that has no psychotherapeutic use then there seems to be something wrong with that. As a therapist I would need to bring such a situation to the surface in a therapy session. However there is nothing intrinsically wrong with having catharsis for catharsis’s sake. People do that all the time by going sky diving, watching sad movies, going to the football so you can shout abuse at the umpires, indeed having sex for non-procreative reasons and so on.

Epiphany
In therapy one sometimes hears people talk about having an “Ah ha!” experience. This is what I would see as epiphany like. The client has a sort of revelation as a consequence of talking with the therapist. The revelation is most often something about them self that they were not aware of. So one could say that all of a sudden the client’s unconscious becomes conscious and there is that sensation of revelation, Ah ha or an epiphany.
This is where the idea of extractive identification plays a role and where the therapist literally steals from the client. A client may report that her husband is always angry but in fact what is happening is he is not angry instead she is projecting her anger on to him. She is unaware than she is doing this and thus the problem persists.

Humans are very good at lying to themselves and not seeing what they are really doing.
If the therapist should suddenly report this to her, that she is projecting her anger, then her unconscious all of a sudden become conscious. But the therapist has stolen the ah ha experience from her by giving her that information. He has stolen the possibility of her having an epiphany about her unconscious projection, at least to some degree. This is extractive identification.
If she should suddenly become aware of her unconscious projections by her self then her experience or self revelation will be much stronger and thus will tend to have more of a psychological impact on her. It’s like the client is half way through reading the latest Harry Potter novel and all of a sudden the therapist comes along and tells her the ending. The experience is ruined to some degree.
So that is why it is sometimes (often) wise for the therapist to shut up and let the client struggle around and come to their own realisations about their unconscious even if it is standing out like the proverbials for the therapist looking on.
So that is how I see catharsis and an epiphany being different. However often an epiphany can lead onto some kind of cathartic release and indeed a catharsis could lead to an epiphany for that matter. So one could say that they are related in that way.

Right at this time I am working with a man where catharsis is the main mode of treatment. I have seen him 5 times and all he does is talk and talk lots. He is a banker and arrives always on time in an immaculately tailored suit with gold pens in the top pocket, business tie and perfectly shined black shoes. The whole deal of the upper end business world.
He just talks. I intervene occasionally but not all that often. For the past 30 years he has never had an opportunity to speak about himself in this way. So now he can and he is not missing the opportunity. At last he can talk about himself and what he thinks and feels and about his life as a child and teenager and so forth.
I could be doing all sorts of fancy therapy but I don’t and he simply gets cathartic release. If he continues to see me then I will intervene more but for the time being he states that he is getting what he wants and is keen to continue.
Graffiti
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Comments
What does it mean when talking to a therapist doesn't result in catharsis. What if it makes the patient feel worse? And then feeling worse results in a feeling of failure, because the patient thinks that talking about her problems should make her feel better. So talking ---> feeling worse ---> feeling like a failure. What would you do for that patient?
Posted by: Harriet | Friday, 20 March 2009
I would suggest they see the half full glass Harriet
Graffiti
Posted by: Tony | Friday, 20 March 2009
So they work together hand in hand; so to speak. I like that. I like it when something exists because of something else and that something else exists because of the original something. It seems to be important somehow.
I'm going to bed now. I shopped at ebay and facebooked and now i'm a tad noddy so... nitey nite.
Posted by: roses | Saturday, 21 March 2009
I don't understand.
Posted by: Harriet | Saturday, 21 March 2009
"So that is why it is sometimes (often) wise for the therapist to shut up and let the client struggle around and come to their own realisations about their unconscious even if it is standing out like the proverbials for the therapist looking on."
Ah ha! I see... I sometimes (maybe often) feel my therapist guiding me in a certain direction, but not quite taking me all the way. And I KNOW that she knows the answer... but she won't just give me the answer. Sometimes I get frustrated because I honestly don't know what she's hoping I'll find, but I guess that it makes sense for it to be better for me to think of it myself than for her to provide it to me.
Lest you think I'm advocating for the therapist as a blank slate, I've found myself shocked and surprised (an epiphany perhaps?) by some of her reactions to things I've told her. Things that I thought of as just "normal" and her obvious surprise and distress helps me to see how not normal some of those things were.
(I'm on my way now to read some of your back posts about transference... I'll see if I think any of it relates to my "stalker-ish" feelings of late.)
-else
Posted by: else | Sunday, 22 March 2009
I am not sure I either had an epithany nor catharsis ever during therapy.
I would say I did experience both the other week. When my pent up feelings - which had leaked out via snidey comments for a while - culminated in me bawling my eyes out, not quite hysterically, but I cant think of a better word. Not only did tears roll down my face but I was vocal in sound too. (not sure how I would describe it but I think you get my gist?)
I probably wouldnt of got to that place if I hadnt been pushed by Mrs K. I had been bad tempered with her for a while and she was fed up with it, so pushed me and pushed me to understand what was going on.
In the end I just cracked up, got under my duvet and bawled my eyes out. Not only was it catharthic (bloody hell that is a hard word to spell!) in the massive emotional release built up over a very long time and not something I would normally do, but I actually voiced what I was thinking. Not sure I liked what I was thinking.
I will be honest here, though not sure how I feel in admitting it.
Basically I was jealous. I was jealous of the amount of time that Mrs K was dedicating to a worthy charitable cause, and I felt neglected. I also felt very bad cos I was jealous of a charitable cause!
But I said it.
Two days later Mrs K joked to me that I was much better off for the good cry. She also said that "I am so thicked skinned. Sometimes I need to hear you say something with such force of emotion for me to hear it."
So I guess she had an epithany too.
Posted by: Kahless | Sunday, 22 March 2009
Hi Harriet just thought I sensed some hostility and it made me think of the famous song by the Monty Python gang. "Always look on the bright side of life"
Posted by: Tony | Sunday, 22 March 2009
Hello Else,
I liked the "about me" on your blog.
What else
Something else etc
Stalk away on the 'transference' which is quite an apt topic to stalk about really. I still think it is not possible to be a stalker if the stalkee does not know they are being stalked. There are lots of people who read this blog and never comment.
They have told me they do - current and ex clients, colleagues, trainees, and so forth. Even some rellies!. I imagine there are others who have not told me they read it so they could be stalking me but I don't know that they are.
I liked your point about the client getting frustrated about the therapist not giving the client an answer that he knows. Could be another blog post on that one.
You managed to spell epiphany right, unlike Kahless, but I think she may have been enjoying some convivials whilst making her comment.
Graffiti
Posted by: Tony | Sunday, 22 March 2009
You think me on the cheeky water?
Actually its seems my catholic upbringing has got the better of me in the spelling of Epithany (the christain festival) as opposed to epiphany.
Posted by: Kahless | Sunday, 22 March 2009
Hi Kahless, that certainly sounds like a catharsis!
The bigger the better as far as catharsis goes, I say. And it sounds like both you and Mrs K both had an epiphany as a result of your catharsis
Your admission sounds reasonable. I say. Those charitable causes can really grind the guilt buttons at times, I say.
Catharsis and epiphany are difficult to spell as you say, and demonstrate. The other day some one said to me that they had catharted and I asked if they opened the window. I suppose that would be a cathartic experience as well.
Holli molli! never having either a catharsis nor an epiphany during your therapy is most unusual. What the heck did you do?
Graffiti
Posted by: Tony | Sunday, 22 March 2009
Cheeky water Kahless,
Never heard it called that before.
I didn't know your were catholic.
Did you go to confession and get the cathartic release?
Tony
Posted by: Tony | Sunday, 22 March 2009
I used to have to go to confession every week before taking holy communion.
Nope, no catarthic release their.
In fact I used to make up 'sins' to tell the priest!
Really. I used to pretend I had stolen something so I had something to say.
I found it all in all quite a meaningless experience.
Cheeky water - I heard that expression for the first time this week, liked it, so have added it to my vocab!
Posted by: Kahless | Sunday, 22 March 2009
Yes cheeky water is added to my list as well now,
Well you should have told the priest that one Kahless,
"Forgive me father for I have sinned, I made up my sins to tell you"
Tony
Posted by: Tony | Sunday, 22 March 2009
It seems you can confess online these days.
www.ivescrewedup.com
Posted by: Kahless | Sunday, 22 March 2009
It is an interesting subject Tony, whether to "extract the identification" or to let the client take their own winding path to awareness. I think there are other ways of working vicariously - perhaps with visualizations that dont exactly extract but at the same time they dont leave things for donkeys years.
I like the way on Two and Half Men when Charlies therapist uses counter transference and extractive identification when she 'wrestles' with him around awareness work.
k
Posted by: kenoath | Sunday, 22 March 2009
I like that too Ken. But that is just in the show's script isn't it? I like the way she's not an easy person to get around - she seems to have all the routes covered. Charlie's Psych (the actual actress) must be a very clever actor to perform that so well, huh? Well, i think so.
Posted by: roses | Sunday, 22 March 2009
By the way Tony...
I love all the pictures you picked for this one. They all speak loudly. So nice...
G'night... roses
Posted by: roses | Sunday, 22 March 2009
Just out of curiosity... is there an adjective for epiphany?
catharsis/cathartic... epiphany/epiphantic?? epiphanous??
-else
Posted by: else | Monday, 23 March 2009
I don't know Else,
But I looked at my dictionary and you can have the adjective of
epiphanic
Tony
Posted by: Tony | Monday, 23 March 2009
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