Monday, 13 April 2009
Over weight
KazzaB states about the previous post:
"I loved reading about the german women. What was the reaction from the other people around the pool? I think that's wonderful and something I'd love to aspire to. To not feel self conscious and just accept yourself as you are is a real gift”
There would have been three reactions from all the others at the pool KazzaB
One third would have responded from their Child ego state: I know that as I watched them I was interested and curious from an anatomical point of view because I never get to see a body like that without it being almost completely covered up. What does the body do with all that fat and extra weight? Where and how does it put it on the body?
One third would have responded from their Adult ego state: These people would have observed and viewed them and maybe asked a question like, “Is that a cultural thing where over weight German women can display their bodies like that?”
One third would have responded from their Parent ego state: “Look at those fat women, they are disgusting and should be ashamed of themselves. They are obviously weak willed and should go on a diet”.
That’s it KazzaB. There is always going to be those three responses. Obviously the Parent ego state response is the most contentious one. You can get laws changed where one can’t make discriminatory statements about over weight people. But you can never stop people thinking and feeling Parent ego state responses.
This is where I think most political groups fail. The “Fat is good” political force in society stands up for their rights and get laws changed that say you can’t poke fun at fat people and so forth. To my mind they also need to openly acknowledge that people will always have a Parent ego state and that means that some of them will always think derogatory and discriminatory thoughts. Those can never be stopped and this needs to be openly stated.
Those German women would know that. That some of the people watching them pool side would be thinking that they are fat and ugly. Somehow they have their own internal thinking structured such that it does not modify their behaviour or their perception of self (I assume).
Part of that would be an acceptance of self. That is they are focusing on self and not others. The question is not - “Do they think I am fat and ugly?” instead it is - “Do I think I am fat and ugly?” And it is in this way that the political groups are actually bad psychologically for the over weight people. The political groups are focussed on changing others. Their focus is on how others behave which to my mind is the wrong thing to do. It is not about focussing on self it is about changing others.
This is what I like about the Pro-ana groups. Whilst they do give out unfortunate advice to teenage girls on loosing weight and so forth, it is a self focussed approach. It says to the girls “I live the anorexic lifestyle and that is (I am) OK”. They are not trying to change others.
That is why I like the last sentence in your comment KazzaB, about the self acceptance. We always know how others will react. One third will be from Child, one third will be from Adult and one third will be from Parent. But that focusses on them and not on what I think and feel.
Graffiti
15:05 Permalink | Comments (37) | Email this | Tags: fat, over weight, anorexia, obesity, self image
Comments
I made a comment and it didn't register, so I'll try again. Funny when that happens because you can't think of exactly what you wrote before!!
I was put on a diet from the moment I understood what the word meant. I think I was bought up to be ashamed of my body and that wasn't helped when I was teased and from my point of view, humiliated. I think with the issue of obesity and in particular childhood obesity in the news so much these days, more children will be getting teased and made to feel that they are not okay. There is a lot of talk but there doesn't seem to be a lot of solutions. When I buy healthy food it costs me a lot more than if I buy not so healthy foods and that's a place to start. Make healthy food affordable so that families can eat healthy. I know how much it costs me as a single person and I can only imagine how hard it is for families.
I understand what you mean by the judgements from the Ego states and it's unfortunate. I admire those German women because I don't think many people ever come to self acceptance and don't care what others think of them.
This is totally different from what I wrote before but what I wanted to say was it's such a shame to know from an early age that you are not acceptable as you are. It is soul destroying and shatters your self esteem, if you are not the sort of person who has the supports or the strength to stand up for yourself it begins a life long battle for even self acceptance, let alone acceptance from others.
Posted by: KazzaB | Monday, 13 April 2009
I guess I'm just different. While I find it mean when people are picked on for thiings like the way they look, I really think people are overlooking the obvious in the rush to accept fat. Obesity is a very serious health problem and in many cases it probably signifies an underlying psychological problem as well. While I do not personally consider an overweight person to be ugly or lazy or any other stereotyped thing, I'm not going to pretend that it's healthy and good to be obese. I certainly wouldn't pretend that it's healthy and good to be emaciated, so why do it with fat? They're both unhealthy and most often signify a deeper problem. I don't understand the new societal attitude of 'fat acceptance'. Something has gone awry there.
Posted by: Anon | Monday, 13 April 2009
Hi KazzaB,
It does sound that way to be soul destroying to feel not acceptable to be the way you are. And indeed that life long battle.
Thanks for your comment and candor
Tony
Posted by: Tony | Monday, 13 April 2009
Well I going to have to disagree with you on that one anon.
If someone chooses to live an anorexic or obese lifestyle then to me that is their choice and good on them. All I hope for them is that they feel OK and acceptable to them self in doing that and their choice.
If the government health authorities had their way none of us would have any vices at all and live on eating fruit and vegies and exercise continually, never drink or take any other kind of drug and so on endlessly.
If someone does things that will probably shorten their life by 5, 10 or 20 years is that not their choice. What is the alternative. Living a crap, boring and tasteless life for an extra 10 years.
Cheers
Graffiti
Posted by: Graffiti | Monday, 13 April 2009
I agree it is a health issue, rather than a cosmetic issue. I'm not sure about "the rush to accept fat". I don't see that happening myself. I also don't think there is a societal attitude of "fat acceptance". I do think a person can be overweight and still healthy tho - you get unhealthy people who are an acceptable weight too. A person who is overweight can have a perfectly normal cholesterol level for example and someone who is thin will have a high one.
I still think that there are ways to combat obesity and there is a lot of talk about it but very little effort to solve the problem. I think another way is to encourage children at school with sport, but sport that suits the individual. And will be fun, rather than competitive. There are ways around the issue if people stop and think about it. If we can start with children, in a discreet and gentle way, then maybe we can save a lot of heartache for them in the future.
Posted by: KazzaB | Monday, 13 April 2009
I am obese and really dislike it.
I remember not so long ago - week or 2 maybe? - sitting with my family having a special lunch where my sister in law said that i was skinny when they (my brother and she) were married. I guess i would have been 12 or so. Then there was another time when my elder sister and i were talking with some friends and i said that i've never been thin and she stopped me and said that i was - that i had been so thin when i was a teen.
All my life i've never been able to be thin. My mother was always telling me that i was fat so i just simply believed her i guess. But i was thin. People are telling me i was thin. I don't understand how, even now, i look at pictures of myself when they say i was thin and i think i look fat.
Now though, i am very fat and very unhealthy and it is not a good thing at all.
Life is such a puzzle isn't it? It's too big a puzzle for me i'm afraid.
Posted by: roses | Monday, 13 April 2009
Graffiti and Anon,
At first I was thinking that Graffiti was talking about psychological health and Anon about physical health. Then I changed my mind.
I agree with you both.
Key is personal choice and acceptance of self. Yet fat / thin / alcoholic / drug addict etc etc are signals of a deeper underlying issue?
Posted by: Kahless | Monday, 13 April 2009
Tony, I am not saying that other people must change and I am not a supporter of governments interfering in the private lives of citizens. I am merely pointing out that it has been my experience, and the experience of some others as well, that unless we lie about the dangers of obesity, then we are 'discriminating' against those who are obese. This is the way things can be in private life.
Kazza, while I agree that some obese people might have normal cholesterol, etc., evidence does not back it up that it is not a major health risk to be obese. This is exactly why governments are beginning to make such a big deal out of the problem. The cost of caring for the damage is enormous and governments are looking for a way out of the expense. Same reason they so heavily tax cigarettes and alcohol. I agree with you that we must start with children and be respectful and gentle with them. Cruelty never pays. And I understand why you say 'fat acceptance' is not something you have experienced. We must all remember that our experiences are subjective. I once suffered from anorexia. Even after I was a normal weight and met new people who did not know me then, I have been treated nastily in the past by obese friends who did not like to be reminded of their problem by hanging out with those who did not share it. This is a sore spot for me right now because it has happened again very recently and the timing was very poor. I am also a trauma survivor and I am making new inroads into having real contact with my body. I decided to share that and was attacked for it by someone I like. She is obese and cannot tolerate hearing about it, I guess. Too bad. I'm not going to apologize for being in my body and for having taken as good care of it as I could manage. Still, this is very disappointing to me. It makes me question some of my friendships with fellow survivors who have weight problems. We ALL have problems. I guess some people will not like me if they cannot always see mine by looking at me. This has been very upsetting for me. I think I need some new friends. Ones who will be glad for whatever health I have been able to preserve. I'm trying to tell myself that finding people like that (who can also understand me with my oddities) might not be the same thing as looking for the Holy Grail.
Posted by: Anon | Monday, 13 April 2009
I'm sorry your experiences have been like that Anon. I guess I'm a bit touchy on this subject too, having experienced the other side of the coin to you and that's having a weight problem. When I was a child I came across a lot of cruelty and some of it was from those closest to me. As an adult I haven't come across a lot directed at me - some but not a lot. It is a shame our society does judge a person without knowing their story.
I hope you find some genuine friends Anon. Everyone deserves to have people around them who are supportive and not ones who make us feel bad.
Posted by: KazzaB | Monday, 13 April 2009
Right on, Kahless! I think you understand because we ARE both right in my view as well. But then I knew I wouldn't be rethinking YOU as my friend. Some things I just know, my friend.
{{{{{{{{Kahless}}}}}}}}
And Roses, it wasn't nice of your mother to say that to you. I hope you see that you are valuable and important whatever your weight may be. My mother used to pick on me for being too thin. I wasn't really that abnormally thin when she started in on me. And she was so mean about it. Then later, when I truly was too thin, no one else could say anything to me about it because I just thought they were being mean, too. I honestly didn't realize I had a problem until my doctor said so. I might have listened and seen the problem sooner had I not had her ridicule in the back of my head all the time.
Posted by: Anon | Monday, 13 April 2009
That sounds like a good idea Roses,
Not to be afraid.
What I am saying is that if one has tried all the ways they can to be thinner and it is just never going to happen then it is time to accept who you are.
If one is fat then one is fat and accept that is who you are and that is OK.
If the pro-ana teens can do it then surely adults can as well
Best wishes to you my friend
Tony
Posted by: Tony | Monday, 13 April 2009
Thank you, Kazza. I'm sorry that you were picked on like that. That just wasn't right. I think people pick on others that way when they are unhappy with themselves. Because they've been picked on. It's a terrible vicious cycle.
Posted by: Anon | Monday, 13 April 2009
Anon and kahless,
I would most often agree that extremes in weight and excessive drug and the like do reflect on their probably being emotional issues lurking around.
To my mind the same still applies. How long does one keep seeking therapy of any kind to resolve them. If one is depressed for 10 years and tries all kinds of treatments to little result what does one do.
Keep trying?
or
accept that they are a depressive and that is OK?
Cheers
Tony
Posted by: Tony | Monday, 13 April 2009
I don't see why a person can't do both, Tony. That's where I am right now. I accept that I have certain issues and I can also look back and see certain progress. So, I still have therapy and I might make more progress. My love and acceptance of myself does not depend on the promise that more progress will happen. I can honestly say that I love myself right where I am. I can also honestly admit that I would like to make more progress. Because I love myself and I will never give up on me. Not until I breathe my very last breath. I will never turn my back on myself ever again. Not consciously, anyway. And that is where additional therapy is helpful. I am acceptable to me, but certain circumstances I live with can use some improvement. I am more than my situation, Tony. Much, much more. Sometimes I'm even a 'Darla', as you said. :-)
And screw the Anon stuff. It's me, Lynn.
Kahless, Kazza, and Roses - please come see my latest post and watch the video at the end. It's not just for me. It's for you, too. I am beautiful and so are all of you. And you're beautiful RIGHT NOW, not at some future place when you can meet some expectation.
Posted by: Lynn | Monday, 13 April 2009
And Tony, I know it seems like a 'girl thing', but why should it be? Come see the video. You are beautiful, too.
And I'm not just saying that because I am still enamoured with that photo you used to have up with you in your sunnies.
:-)
Posted by: Lynn | Monday, 13 April 2009
Lynn that is a great video for Kahless, Roses and KazzaB.
I could not have chosen a better one myself and says it all.
Tony
Posted by: Tony | Monday, 13 April 2009
I like that Lynn,
enarmored.
I assume from the french word 'amour',
Tony
Posted by: Tony | Monday, 13 April 2009
Yes, I think it comes from amour.
xoxoxoxo
And on that note, I think it is safe to finally go to sleep now. Goodnight, {{{{Tony}}}}.
Posted by: Lynn | Monday, 13 April 2009
This is a test post as I think my other comments have got lost. I must have used a new m word.
Posted by: Kahless | Monday, 13 April 2009
When I took figure drawing classes I loved drawing the larger people best. The folds of fat were interesting to draw.
Posted by: Lee | Monday, 13 April 2009
I will try now to post my previous comment in sections to find the m word...
*******part one**********
Lynn,
I knew you had been posting as anon for a bit as I picked up your style of writing. And hell, I hope you never rethink me as your friend. That worries me.
All,
I think women tend to think they are fat, whatever their size. I am feeling like that myself at the moment as I have put on some excess. (Its the anti-depressants.) Yet I am at the top end of my normal weight range. I remember when I was really ill with my Crohns in my late teens. I went down to a UK size 6. I think USA4. Not sure in aussie speak. I remember looking in the mirror at a shop thinking how fat I was. I wasnt annorexic. Just my natural human reaction.
And I accept I am not going to get thin. I like my currant buns too much. And crisps.
Posted by: Kahless | Monday, 13 April 2009
**** part two ****
Tony,
I agree that there comes a point to stop trying and become accepting of that is just the way you are. But I dont think youu should give up on changing at the outset if that is what someone wants to do.
All,
And I am no bloody angel. I have a particular battle which fits into this category. I want to change. It is a fucking battle. I so want to change. I WILL change. It just doesnt seem to be happening. I refuse to give up that I cant change.
And accepting and living with it wont help in any way.
Posted by: Kahless | Monday, 13 April 2009
**** part three ****
Tony,
great post. I am loving the debate.
Posted by: Kahless | Monday, 13 April 2009
I then tried to post it in full and it got gobbled up.
How strange.
Maybe it was a message for God and I should have listened?
(I know gobbled up cos you dont get to enter a code)
Posted by: Kahless | Monday, 13 April 2009
Hi Kahless
It always amazes us men how women think they are fat and how that means bad.
I hope I can speak for some men here. The stick figure, praying mantis type woman really does not appeal all that much to some (most) men. When you hug them it is like hugging a sack of bones which is not really what is wanted.
I would suggest that the Marilyn Munroe type figure is far more appealing to many men. Women have kind of decided amongst themselves what is attractive, and are as of yet to consult the men.
I seems to be much more about competitiveness amongst women than about what men want to see in the opposite sex.
Graffiti
Posted by: Graffiti | Monday, 13 April 2009
Lovely song Lynn. Thank you...
Posted by: roses | Tuesday, 14 April 2009
So...
Is it politically correct... or 'any' kind of correctness to describe a person as 'bad' or 'not a very nice person'?
I think its just their behaviour that makes one think to say not very nice things about someone so, when does the behaviour get so bad that one can simply honestly say that the person is not a nice person or bad?
Or... do we just live our lives lying about them by not stating the truth and defending their bad behaviour by explaining their past etc...
So...
... there does have to be societal rules. And there is a reason why people can't do what ever they want when ever they want. And if a person is suicidal and are capable of such big self harm then they are probably able and in the same catagory as someone who is capable of harming others. I've been watching it. I wouldn't have believed it if i hadn't seen if for my self.
Also... is there a game where the girl gets the guy to commit suicide so that she can again be in the lime light... oh the poor thing etc... "he killed him self over her" or "see, he was unbalanced and it was his fault all along" etc...
People can be changed, and very quickly can't they? One just keeps laying 'stuff' on their shoulders - constant phone, face to face barage of abuse - and the guy changes into a whole other person. The weight gets so bad that the strain creates a mind of inside defence toward external... everything.
Some people are just bad aren't they? I never believed ever that i would say something like that - but they are aren't they, just can't think of nice things ever and so anyone they've attached themselves to needs to be angry and sad all the time too?
Where is the hope? There is always hope.
Posted by: roses | Wednesday, 15 April 2009
So...
I just came from Kazza's place and she had a quote up that says something about what or who we choose to be today.
So, being a bad or not very nice person is a choice isn't it?
Does that mean that when a girl is nice and behaves like a nice person...
No.
She's only ever nice after she's been extremely nasty or violent and dangerous. So its not by choice, it's typical abusive behaviour.
AHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!
I wanted it to be because she was trying to be good but its normal abusive behaviour again. It's just the quiet for how-ever-long until the next violent out burst!
SHIT!!!
Posted by: roses | Wednesday, 15 April 2009
Did i write it right? The 's' word? I wouldn't have sounded right if i said it but i thought i might get away with writing it.
I do feel bad having written a yucky word. I must appologize Tony, about the poop i left in your comment section. It does smell abit too. Ewwwww!
Posted by: roses | Wednesday, 15 April 2009
Tony, how very handsome you look!
xoxoxoxoxoxo
:-)
Posted by: Lynn | Wednesday, 15 April 2009
You know something Tony?
I went to sleep last night - just like Tuesday night, i was watching the telly but i just couldn't stay awake so i turned the telly off and went to sleep. Don't know what i dreamed - don't want to know really.
This morning i woke up when hubby went off to work - it seemed dark still but it was cloudy so i guess that's why. I went back to sleep - still a bit sniffily and have this chesty thing so i thought i'd sleep in a bit more before i woke up and got back into my Assignment (due on Monday).
I was drifting in and out of sleep and that's when it happened. When it usually happens actually. The morning was singing.
I heard the early morning voices of birds, people, vehicles, dogs, cows mooing, the cat purring right beside me... it was like magic Tony!
I hope you've had a very alive morning too. Its wonderful...
Posted by: roses | Thursday, 16 April 2009
Actually, what i meant to say was... Good morning
Posted by: roses | Thursday, 16 April 2009
Hello Lynn,
Thank you for the kind comment about my picture and as I said before I think you look pretty in that photo of you in the car
Tony
Posted by: Tony | Friday, 17 April 2009
You are right Roses it is very non PC to say that there are bad people, but I really do wonder about that.
It is such a feel good theory to say that there are no bad people only people's behavior can be bad.
I think that is an Adult ego state view of the world.
However to the Child ego state it is different as it is far more clear and simple and one could even say true. To the Child I think the distinction between bad people and bad behavior does not ring true.
Perhaps this is why there can be such debate about the topic
Tony
Posted by: Tony | Friday, 17 April 2009
But aren't we supposed to be in Adult ego most of the time? Isn't that when we're able to be objective and logical; matter-of-fact type thing? Have i totally scrambled it all up again!
So annoying that...
I hope you noticed how lovely the sky was today. It was truely lovely!
Posted by: roses | Friday, 17 April 2009
Hi Roses,
I dont think we are supposed to do anything eh? Utilise what ego state is appropriate at the right time eh?
Or not! lol!
I was once told that I should only use nuturing parent, adult or free child. Every other part was a nono.
Rebellious child is the fun part.
And lucky you with the sun. It is bucketing it down here. Mind you, I have a plane to catch as I am off to Hamburg (Germany) for the weekend.
Have a good weekend all.
xx.
Posted by: Kahless | Friday, 17 April 2009
Wow Kahless! You certainly do 'get about'. Have a great weekend!
Posted by: roses | Saturday, 18 April 2009
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