Friday, 17 April 2009
Adult dominated personality (edited)
Roses says:
“But aren't we supposed to be in Adult ego most of the time? Isn't that when we're able to be objective and logical; matter-of-fact type thing?” (end quote)
Well that is so Roses,
Transactional Analysis theory says that it is best to have the Adult in executive control of the personality. This means that all the Parent ego state and Child ego state thoughts and feelings are under the control of the Adult ego state.
So any interactions the person has with the others comes from the Adult ego state that has understood and tempered the machinations and irrationality of those two other ego states. The person has made a considered decision on what is the best course of action to take and their decision is not overwhelmed by Child or Parent urges and thoughts.
An example of the Child ego state getting expressed without Adult control. His Adult is probably unaware he is doing it and thus does not have control over the Child ego state
This is one of the many ways that Transactional Analysis and CBT are similar. CBT does the same. Both systems assume that rationality is the healthy psychological state. The psyche that is dominated by the Adult ego state is defined as the state of psychological health.
To my mind in some ways this is a very dubious assumption. We are all born with a Parent and Child ego state that at times are irrational in some way. So Adult control of them could be seen as Adult ego state repression of them. They are not allowed free and unfettered expression. If this is so then an Adult dominated personality is not a healthy state because it involves the defence mechanism of repression dominating the personality.
I have recently put together another article from my blog posts that is to go onto my website, although it is not there yet as my website guy is away, but it should be there shortly. It is titled, “Siblings - rivalry and jealousy”.
In it I state:
“What is being presented here is that jealousy and sibling rivalry are normal emotions for children to experience during childhood. In contrast to this much of the psychological literature on jealousy presents it as a bad emotion that needs to be avoided. Indeed envy is counted as one of the seven deadly sins and of course envy and jealousy are largely interchangeable terms. There are many program and techniques which describe how to over come your jealousy and descriptions of how parents can seek to avoid their children becoming jealous. To my mind this is erroneous and misses the significant psychological growth that can be gained from jealousy.” (end quote)
To restate this relevant to this blog post. The many programs around that work to stop feelings like jealousy basically are seen to assist the person to get Adult control over that emotion. If that happens then one basically thinks the emotions away. And this is one of my main criticisms of CBT and the Adult ego state dominated personality. Feelings are thought away and not expressed. To my mind this is a dangerous thing to do if used consistently over time.
Humans are naturally irrational at times and this irrationally needs to be allowed to be expressed or one is repressing a significant part of the personality.
The first diagram shows how the theory says it should work.
1. The husband says or does something
2. The wife listens to what her Parent ego state says about what hubby said
3. The wife listens to what her Child ego state says about what hubby said
4. Her Adult then makes a decision based on the first three transactions on how to respond. In this instance she responds from her Adult but she could also decide to respond from her Child or Parent
In the second diagram
1. The husband says or does something
2. The wife makes a spontaneous response from her Parent with out consulting the Adult
3. The wife makes a spontaneous response from her Child with out consulting the Adult
TA and CBT theory really do not like the second diagram and would define that as a state of psychological ill health. Indeed if one wanted to get sociological one would say that governments don’t like diagram two. Governments do not like their populations to act is such irrational (non Adult dominated) ways. So one could argue that this psychological theory is used in the service of keeping the powerful in power. However that is for another blog post.
I certainly see diagram 2 as healthy at least some of the time. The spontaneous undeliberated response is psychological health at least some of the time. Most people have a lot of trouble with this because it means surrendering to ones irrationality or emotions. It involves trusting self to a degree that most don’t. This is too frightening for most people and they will complain that they are loosing control, to which I will respond, ‘Yes you are”. An example of this may be when I ask my clients to have a panic attack in front of me.
Its like using mood stabilising drugs. What is wrong with having unstable mood some of the time at least to some degree. Diagram 1 is like a mood stabilising drug. It’s all about control of the personality and that is often over done in a society like Australia. This to my mind it is a pathological state.
Can this Free Child really happen if one has a personality that is dominated by the Adult executive? My answer is, no, as you loose that spontaneous free aspect.
Note to Roses. Do not say this in any of your TA assignments or you will probably get a big black mark. There are a lot of people who would disagree with what I have said here.
Implications for counselling
What the counsellor spends a good amount of their time doing is looking for the non-Adult dominated communications. Looking for the irrational communications that the client is making.
It seems safe to say that people’s verbal communications are going to be much more dominated by Adult than their non-verbal or body language communications. People will display their unconscious urges much more in their body language than in their verbal language.
I often find myself saying to trainee counsellors - Turn down the audio and turn up the video. That is listen less to what they have to say and listen more to they have to do. Stop listening and start watching because that allows one to avoid the Adult dominated communications.
In the picture above I am sure Prince Charles is speaking to the woman in a very appropriate and respectful manner. That is what his audio says. She also looks quite attractive and has a good rack which is what his video says. This is no criticism of him, he is just a member of the male gender of the human species. If males could get their Adult ego state down below their waist line more often the world would probably be a much simpler place.
So what is my point? Well by watching his video tells me all sorts of things. First it says that he is probably of a heterosexual orientation. So if you have a client who is saying that he thinks he may be homosexual and then is displaying such video then that is incongruent.
In counselling I say watch the hands and the feet. These extremities often seem to display the Child, non-Adult dominated communications. Hence one can see why I assert that approaches that define rationality and the Adult exectutive in the personality as healthy use the defence mechanism of repression. This is why I would say it is not a healthy state but a pathological state.
Graffiti
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Comments
I had a client a few years ago who was totally intrigued with the idea of choice. She had a child, about 2 who was like most 2 year olds. She would come in and tell me about the choice she made in handling her 2 year old. Some times she chose to deal with him from Adult, other times from Parent, but she really enjoyed the times when she chose to deal with him from Child and threw her own temper tantrum!!
Posted by: gezunda | Friday, 17 April 2009
I agree that we shouldn't always react with Parent or Child when dealing with our spouses, but sometimes it is helpful or even necessary--especially the Child, because that mind will say something that needs to be said, even if it's not "appropriate." Sometimes it's better to have it said and then deal with it from the Adult mind. (speaking from recent experience)
Posted by: April | Saturday, 18 April 2009
Hello Gez,
Sounds like your client learnt some good stuff. I recall a client who said that once her young child bit her so she bit the child back!
Tony
Posted by: Tony | Saturday, 18 April 2009
That is a good point April,
If you always censored what your Child wanted to say with the Adult, what needs to be said may not get said all that often.
And I would say that the partner would pick that up and know that the partner was always controlling what they were saying.
Tony
Posted by: Tony | Saturday, 18 April 2009
I don't have any TA assignments Tony. Would you like to give me one? I would like that and work on it inbetween uni, counselling course and sewing my grandson some warm winter clothes. Busy yes - but i will make time any time for TA - my 'child' has much say and power in the TA matter and i think it best (healthy) to encourage such directional enthusiasm.
It feels that perhaps it is necessary to work with every one (ego states that is) in fully functioning mode. I want to live and live in an 'alive' way.
I can't imagine what i'd do if it weren't for my functional ego states. I'd never survive boring things nor would i ever have much fun let alone talking about that fun with the person understanding logically what i was communicating about.
My big thought is...
... i don't think its possible to become intimate with someone who is always in 'Adult' functional mode. Imagine playing a game of cards with someone who tempers emotion and sponteneity all the time? Forget that! Might as well paint a wall and spend the rest of the day watching the paint dry!
Also, i like to be parented too. I like it when someone is concerned for me or gives advice when i ask for it. Its not important that i 'like' the advice or even follow through on it - but its nice to feel the parental presence of others sometimes.
My son's are very good at all of the above. It isn't always easy to be with them but I do so like their company.
I was going to ask you some other stuff but i'm thinking that perhaps i'd best get back to my essay. Thank you so much for answering my question.
Its true you know? I don't just say it for the sake of strokes and stuff like that. I really do hope that you do have a lovely weekend. I really do hope that you notice how lovely the day can be if, or even better... 'when' you look and see.
Posted by: roses | Saturday, 18 April 2009
Yes I believe you roses,
And I will have a fine day today.
Glad you don't have any TA assignments, you must have finished them all. I am sure you got A's all the way like Lee does.
Have a good weekend for yourself. Next weekend is another bank holiday with ANZAC day as I am sure you know already.
Tony
Posted by: Tony | Saturday, 18 April 2009
I left a comment earlier, but I guess it got gobbled up by the internet gremlins. I'd write it again, but my brain is a busy place and something seems to have shorted out between then and now. Maybe I'll have something to say when it reconnects again.
Posted by: Lynn | Saturday, 18 April 2009
I'm glad you've had a fine day and i hope your night pans out well also.
I'm essaying this weekend but hope to get out in the boat sometime tomorrow and catch all those naughty fish who aren't in school. Fish are supposed to be in school every day apparently.
The TA assignment thing? No Tony... i'm too tired to play.
I'm going to sew some baby jump suits now. Happy Saturday night!
Posted by: roses | Saturday, 18 April 2009
Good post about Adult ego state pathology Tony.
It is interesting to view how some group members handle dropping aspects of their thinking (control) in Relational work.
As you say Tony - invariably we have been brought up with the view that its not helpful to display ones vulnerability in life. I do know some writers on the internet who do the opposite. There seems to be less consequence on the cyberwaves when expressing Parent or Child parts than when interacting in real group environments. I always sense that aspects of the Parent ego state are also repressed due to social and relationship philosphies.
kenoath
Posted by: kenoath | Sunday, 19 April 2009
Ahh! So both those diagrams you made are all about when someone says (well many people say and think) - "Think before you speak!" or "I have to remember to think before i speak!" - or in the movie Transformers where the secretary of defence says to the young girl analyst who was having a problem with the "brain/mouth thing"?
The 'adult' is, among other things, a 'politically correct' engine? The me to you, communciations filter? The ever diplomatic peace keeper?
No! People with an over active Adult i call the 'untouchables' and its like they don't exist. You can't really touch them.
Its what i do (have done) to manage work life while being safe from others. Like a big shield and no one can penetrate it. I don't like to do that because i so like to be intimate with others but sometimes it has to be done. It seems like something that people do because there is an 'Adult' moment but most things done with such detachment are done that way because the person doing the deed is hiding from the truth/reality.
When one hides from the truth too much they need to keep the 'adult' shield up because if they ever dare to lower it, the emotional overload pours out and they become a crushed and self abused mess.
No! Some moments need to be shared moments between all ego states. Most of our lives we need the balance it takes to face the 'dirty work' or 'harsh decisions' that we all have to make one time or another.
It is not safe to hide behind the shield. It will seem to be ok for a time but after years of enduring behind the shield, one day something will cause that shield to come crashing down. When that happens, life will seem unlive-able, dark, cold and frightening in a way that could never be imagined.
I don't ever want that to happen again! Ever! No...
Posted by: roses | Monday, 20 April 2009
Ok. Yeah - i'm thick but not as thick as some. I'm on it now.
Posted by: roses | Monday, 20 April 2009
Yes.
I remember trust being so broken and abused that to go to anyone and talk to them about private intimate things, would have been the most hugest wrong to ever do. I think that if i'd have gone to a person there was no way i'd opened up with them - there was no way that i would have trusted back then (gosh - still now) so i would have gone to therapy and it would have been the biggest waste of time for both the therapist and myself.
I can't believe how volnerable i was - still am i guess.
I remember being in a therapy session...
(ohh! I've been to therapy sessions! I remember now - group therapy, and individual therapy - gosh so many! I'd totally forgotten! It wasn't like i'd 'gone to therapy' so to speak but there were many training courses on how to counsel and stuff like that. Gosh! Years and years of it. I wonder why i didn't notice that before?)
... and sitting there - meditation type thing - and the lady was asking me to do something, can't really remember now, but i do remember the outcome of the session. I remember - in my minds eye - it was a dark and quite place and i was moving somehow when i found a door. I listened at the door and could hear nothing so i carefully opened the big heavy door and peeked in side. That's when i saw something small lying on the floor.
The room was a rather large concrete box. It was cold, the air was stale and old and it was not very light.
I walked up to the 'thing' lying on the floor and it was a little - gosh almost skeletel child. It weakly looked up at me as i reached down to pick it up and as i looked into it's eyes i realised it was me. I had locked this little person up for so long and walked away and left her there. Her skin was black and dry. It clung to the bones and sagged in between each of the ribs and sunk into her abdomen as though nothing were inside. Her eyes kept rolling back into her head and her tongue was dry and kind of stuck to her lips when she attempted to speak.
In my mind i remember hearing thoughts that were warning me of what would happen if i allowed this little one to be released. How, though she were so small and helpless looking right now but when she is strengthened, she will do much damage. How she would be out of control and that i'd have to be on guard at all times because she is not good at behaving as one should.
I remember that so clearly now.
Posted by: roses | Tuesday, 21 April 2009
well said above Roses.
kenoath
Posted by: kenoath | Tuesday, 21 April 2009
Thanks Ken.
Finding the little enebriated me happened at a sexual abuse group that met for a few hours, once a week, around 10-12 years ago.
I don't think i have been sexually abused but i went just in case. *Shrugs* Seemed like a good enough reason to me.
I learned a lot of things during that particular course of sessions - a lot about how things can effect people. I realised then that people are often VERY different and, more than that, how we humans are the most amazing and beautiful creatures.
We can be so evil one moment and in the blink of an eye, compassionate and caring - and not even notice it. People are amazing Ken - we're amazing creatures.
Posted by: roses | Wednesday, 22 April 2009
Tony? I didn't want to write this on the next post and mess up Kahless' birthday party so i'm putting it here.
Yesterday i read a little about Mr Freud (cause the picture made me think of him) and Mr Jung (cause there was reference to him on Mr Freud's stuff).
Boy! Are they ever different type ideas!
From the bits that i've read, i think Mr Freud is into 'society' where as Mr Jung is into society too - just differently, that's all.
I think Freud assumes.
It seems that people who are into living in a strong healthy society with social correctness are into assumptions. To believe that society’s correctness is “the only way to go”, live in an/many assumption/s.
It’s probably not so strange and that most people understand it simply because it’s just the way things are. But there are many who don’t understand society’s rules which is to be expected too (but we forget that bit i guess).
A rather young and very upset girl once came to me and needed to talk. As she talked, I think she went through every emotion there is – including all the mixed ones… and more! She asked why, why, why??
I asked her some questions and eventually she came around to talking about people who pretend.
People pretend.
It’s just the way it has to be – and the truth of that set her free in the most amazing way. Oh Tony! It was lovely and she is coping quite well now that she knows how things (socially or publically) need to be.
My concern is…
… my sons know. They know how to be publically and in social situations. When they cease to pretend in public – it is a decision they make, not something that ‘leaks’ out of them because of the pressure that any social or cultural ‘behaviour’ clause that’s put on our lives from the moment people are born. Further more, I didn’t tell them the rules – they just know when and how - what is socially expected of them to pretend and not only that; whether they want to follow the rules or not. They worked it out themselves.
I’ve watched and been close to these 3 people grow up and develop – our sons and this young girl. They have known and continue to learn how this thing works – society that is. But she didn’t. Since the ‘pretending’ thing has been figured out in her head, things have become a much more decisive time for her. So… out of the 3 young people I’ve known, loved and watched develop and adapt into society, 1 out of the 3 needed help understanding it.
I consider that to be quite a frightening realization.
Posted by: roses | Thursday, 23 April 2009
Mr Jung on the other end of the spectrum (the very same spectrum I might add), assumes too but seems to be able to leave a question alone as well. He takes an assumption that has been created to answer a question (as you would say in relationships – ‘fill in the gaps’) and is quite willing to let it go and allow the thought that perhaps the answer to that particular question is the question itself. Mind you, that certainly doesn’t stop him from assuming various answers anyway.
I do like his ideology and his ability to ‘imagine-ise’ things into a more fluid concept. Yeah – I imagine a lot of people thinking of him as an ‘air head’ and that’s ok with me.
He gives room for imagination and thoughts that are outside of ‘us’. I like that! He presents us with a whole bunch of “what if’s”, and I really like that!
Lots of people have taken on assumptions from both of these high browed fellows, but isn’t it strange how they just didn’t get on. Imaging what could have happened if they did get on and further their thoughts together? Wow!
Posted by: roses | Thursday, 23 April 2009
And...
... if people or scholars or academics or who-ever-'they'-are, don't want to understand the whole 'consciousness' thing in a collective way then... just look around. Watch some news or read a paper. Check out the same in most other countries and places in the world. Though there may be cultural differences its all still the same.
We seem to be such messy creatures don't we?
Posted by: roses | Thursday, 23 April 2009
Hi Tony
I think its interesting that you picked "jealousy" to describe negatively percieved emotions. A person I know is attempting to avoid/control his teenager phase in life. He hates other teenagers his own age and labels them "immature". Adult executive ego state could not be free to cathect "full on" unless Parent Ego told the Child what it disliked and for the Child part to feel some kind of shame.
Sometimes I take the Ego states in a literal way which is perhaps an off shoot of my Adult Ego training. The ego states differentiate or reduce aspects of personality so they may be analyzed. In real neuropsychology perhaps there are a great deal of child and parent qualities behind the Adult pathology idea?
kenoath
Posted by: kenoath | Friday, 24 April 2009
I picked jealousy Kenoath as I was just finishing my blog post on my website and I was writing about it. BTW it is there now on my website available for download.
Hope your weekend is good kenoath
Graffiti
Posted by: Tony | Friday, 24 April 2009
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